Transcript of 12 hours of
radio interview of Chip Tatum on Intelligence Report. Ted Gunderson, a retired
FBI chief, is the interviewer. Commercials and telephone calls into the program
have been edited out if not substantive.
This transcript was
serialized and posted to Freerepublic.com by a Washington lawyer who uses the
name “areistides.”
A CIA AGENT TALKS: Cocaine,
Assassinations, NWO, Bush, Clinton (Part One)
Crime/Corruption News
Keywords: CHIP TATUM CIA ASSASSINATIONS COLBY BUSH FBI MOSSAD NIH
Source: Radio Interview of
Gene "Chip" Tatum
Published: May (?) 1997
Author: Interview of Chip Tatum by Ted Gunderson
Posted on 11/12/1999
19:06:48 PST by aristeides
This is the first excerpt
from an extensive series of radio interviews of Gene "Chip" Tatum by
Ted Gunderson on a program entitled Intelligence Report. Ted Gunderson is a 27
year FBI agent who was in charge of the second largest office of the Bureau
when he retired. Since retirement, he has investigated several high profile
cases and has received frequent recognition for outstanding work.
As to Chip Tatum, here is
how an article in The Nexus described him:
"Vietnam Special Forces
air combat controller, 25-year CIA deep-cover agent,US Army pilot flying
classified missions during the US invasion of Grenada, Iran-Contra pilot flying
cocaine shipments labeled as 'medical supplies', a member of the ultra-secret
international G-7-run Pegasus hit-team, this is the extraordinary story of a
man named Gene "Chip" Tatum, and sensitive, highly secretive, and
heretofore largely unknown special forces covert operations in Cambodia, to
wandering DIA asset, through to black ops activities in Grenada and Ollie
North's Iran-Contra Enterprise, as well as membership in an international hit
team, Gene "Chip" Tatum has seen it all, done it all, is now telling
it all.”
"A
("announcer"): OK, I - an outstanding guest, not one but two today,
and I'll start with Stu Webb (ph). Stu Webb I've known for some time. Number of
connections, went to the Iran-Contra, the Silverado Savings & Loan scandal,
the Denver airport, and the HUD scandal.
Stu became involved in
exposing corruption in America through a marriage, and I'll let him explain
that to you later.
And we also have my friend -
I've never had the privilege of meeting him in person, but he's got to be a
great American. He's a combination of Rambo, Schwarznegger, and John Wayne all
wrapped up in one, Gene "Chip" Tatum.
Let me just read from the
"Nexus" magazine, which is published, by the way, in England. You
cannot even publish something like this in the United States of America. You
know the First Amendment, freedom of speech, the legend, for us?
Yes, for us. You change
yourself. News-free media, shame on you, you're not furnishing the American
people the truth, what has to be said, what has to be told to the public.
Anyway, let me read from
this article, "The Nexus," and it's the May and April of 1997. It's
out. "Vietnam Special Force air combat controller, 25-year CIA deep-cover
agent, U.S. Army pilot flying classified missions during the U.S. invasion of
Grenada, Iran-Contra pilot flying cocaine shipments labeled as 'medical
supplies,' a member of the ultra-secret International G-7-run Pegasus hit-team,
this is the extraordinary story of a man named Gene 'Chip' Tatum, and
sensitive, highly secretive, and heretofore largely unknown special-forces
covert operations in Cambodia, to wandering CIA asset, through to black ops
activities in Grenada and Ollie North's Iran-Contra Enterprise, as well as
membership in an international hit team, Gene 'Chip' Tatum has seen it all,
done it all, is now telling it all."
And congratulations, Gene,
for coming forward. You have a great deal of admiration and respect coming from
me, but also from the American people.
And Stu, thanks to you for
coming on the show, and for making Gene available.
Let's start off. Gene, are
you there?
T: I'm here, Ted.
A: OK.
Gene, it's just absolutely
fabulous that you're coming forward. I've known of a number of other
operatives, agents, et cetera who have not come forward but would like to come
forward because of the consequences that are facing them if they do, and I'm
aware that you have been through your trial and tribulation, had some problems,
attempts to discredit you, jail, and the whole nine yards, right?
T: That's right, Ted. I just
left federal prison April 4th, just a few weeks ago.
A: And tell us about your
background. How - where were you raised, and, you know, are you from a rural
background, a city-boy, or what?
T: I'm a city-boy from St.
Petersburg, Florida, spent my whole life there, and then, when Vietnam came
around, I was one of the low-lottery people, and I decided, well, I really
don't want to go to Vietnam, so I started shopping around. I went to the Navy
recruiter. The Navy recruiter told me, you know, "Well, you know, look at
these nice bell-bottom blue jeans," and back in the 70's, as a young, you
know, 19-year-old, that was pretty neat to me.
Then the Air Force recruiter
told me, "Chip, listen, I want to make you an air traffic controller, so
that, even if you do go to Vietnam, you'll be 100 miles away from
everything."
I said, "That's for
me."
Well, I graduated in the top
10 percent of the class, and they came out with a new position, it's called a
combat controller, and that's where you jump in between the enemy and our lines
and call in the air-strikes.
A: That's a long ways from
being air traffic controller, Chip.
T: Boy, I'll tell you!
(LAUGHTER)
A: Well, yes. Do you think
you made the right decision?
T: I do. I wouldn't change
those decisions for anything in the world. It' s a life that I've lived. It's a
life that I'm proud that I lived, and that I think I've done good for this
country, but I think that the country needs some help right now.
A: Well, you're a hero.
You're a 100-percent John Wayne-Rambo-Schwarzenegger hero as far as I'm
concerned.
I read this article last
night, and it's absolutely shocking what you are telling the American people
now - you're coming out - how long have you been coming out publicly with this
information?
T: Oh, for about a year and
a half. When the government decided to prosecute my wife, when they were after
me to discredit me, I knew then that things were very wrong. You know, they
brought a man in that didn't know her from the man in the moon, and he
testified against her that he was a good friend and, you know, it was?
A: It was total lies, huh?
(BREAK)
And we're back. My guest
today is Gene Tatum and Stu Webb.
I'm aware, you know, as you
are, having been involved in the intelligence community for some time, of
what's going on, but I've never seen so much information and so - as compact as
this is, in this particular article, and there is so much here, and I'd like to
get it out to the American people.
Can you - if I clear my
calendar all next week, starting with Tuesday, can you be with me for four or
five days?
T: Yes, I believe so.
A: OK. I'm going to clear it
this afternoon, and, starting Tuesday - and for you, Gene, we're getting ready
to go into a quick break. And when I come back, I'd like to - I'd be interested
in finding out how you two got connected. We're going to be together here for
four or five days, so we have plenty of time to really tell the story as it
should be told. We'll be right back for the last few minutes. Time for a quick
break.
(BREAK)
A: We're back. My guest
today is Gene Tatum, inside, your CIA deep-cover agent, and Stu Webb, a
whistle-blower, super whistle-blower, has been exposing this criminal element,
shadow government, within our system for a number of years.
Gene, how did you and Stu
ever hook up?
T: You know, I'm not quite
sure. I was in prison at the time, and he hooked up through my wife Nancy, and
I think probably Stu can tell a little more about that.
A: Yes. Why don't you just
give us a little short synopsis on that?
W: Basically, Al Martin
(sp?), who I've dealing with since 1991 - he did a few radio-shows back in '95
with me. I was a former shadow-government player, he was Gen. Richard Secord's
head accountant, in the Iran-Contra affair. He was doing business in Denver,
with Meyer Blinders (sp?), Silverado, and D.C. Milman(sp?), Mizell (sp?), all
of them.
He had informed me that Gene
was in jail and that Gene was a very important link in the Colorado, that he
had done business there back in the 70's, and so it was one of those things
that I could not plan, and I took it from there and tried to help him get some
exposure.
A: OK. Back to you, Gene.
Gene, in reading this
article, "The Pegasus File" --
A: What is the Pegasus operation?
T: At the time,
"Pegasus" is a code-name. Actually, "Pegasus" was a
code-name given to me by Mr. Colby in 1971.
A: Mr. Colby being
ex-director of the CIA.
T: That's correct. He was
the CIA station chief for - or the equivalent thereof - we didn't quite have a
station chief in Saigon, but he ran the agency in Saigon. He was the one who
debriefed me after my captivity in Cambodia. I had a 92-day captivity as a
prisoner of war. Following the debriefing, he explained to me that I would be
under the operational control throughout the rest of my career of the CIA. I
said, "OK."
(LAUGHTER)
A: And what does that mean?
T: What do you say? Well,
all of my assignments were controlled by Mr. Colby and the agency.
A: They were right at the
top, then?
T: That's correct.
For fear - there was a lot
of fear on the part of the White House that what we had done in Vietnam and
Cambodia, the attack on the Phnom Penh airport, who - the Cambodians were our
allies - the U.S. attacking that could not be accepted in the international
community, by other governments.
So there was a lot of fear
in the Nixon White House that this would get out. And out of the 13 men that
were on Operation Red Rock only two of us survived.
A: Well, what you're saying
is, of course, based on everything I've been able to research and learn, we've
been killing our allies for years, haven't we?
T: Oh, that's true,
absolutely. They align or they die. Those are the only two choices that they
have.
A: And sometimes when they
align, they still die.
T: That's correct.
A: Yes, well, you know, are
you familiar with the order that was given back in the early 80's, where they
unilaterally transfered some of these CIA agents over in the various agencies,
other intelligence agencies, in order to (CROSS-TALK) control them, and so
forth?
T: And that's where I went.
Pegasus is a name that I
used because I had to wait five years after my debriefing to talk about
anything, and five years was February of this year. That article in
"Nexus", they've been working on for over a year, trying to put it
together and investigate, so that there wasn't any liability on their part.
So I used the name Pegasus,
but I was actually a member of an operational subgroup.
A: And now, wasn't Pegasus
established kind of as a secret organization within the CIA - in other words,
secret agents within the secret agents to spy on the others?
T: That's correct. Our
primary function in Pegasus was to spy on the spies, to make sure that they
didn't get out of line.
A: And how would you do
this, and who would you report to?
T: We would report directly
to the Director of CIA, and that - my involvement with that was directly to the
Director, Colby, and following that Director Bush.
A: And do you know, by the
way, John DeCamp?
T: I know the name well,
yes.
A: Yes. And were you
involved with him at all?
T: No, I wasn't.
A: John is a good friend of
Bill Colby's. John wrote the book to turn up the cover-up which is available
through this program for $15. Anybody that wants it can write to Ted Gunderson,
Post Office Box 18000-259, Las Vegas, Nevada 89119, exposes, you know,
organized child-kidnapping, and which I feel ties back into the Finders group
back in Washington, D.C.
Are you familiar with the
Finders group?
T: No, I'm not.
We were very
compartmentalized in our positions at Pegasus.
A: OK. So, that's kind of
like where I was in the FBI, then.
T: Right.
A: And OK, what would you
do, as a spy, on a spy?
T: As a spy, let's say?
A: Hold your thought there,
Gene. We'll be right back, folks.
(BREAK)
A: And we're back. And, as
my guests, Gene "Chip" Tatum, 25-year CIA deep-cover agent, and Stu
Webb, whistle-blower.
And, Gene, back to you. I
want to ask you how do spies spy on spies. But before I do that, going back to
these unilateral transfers, out of the CIA into various intelligence agencies,
how many transfers were there? Do you have any idea?
T: I don't know. I worked,
in the particular group I was with - I worked with several FBI intelligence
officers, and Defense Intelligence Agency personnel.
A: Well, now, were you
transferred into another agency for cover, like a lot of these fellas have been
doing into the Department of Energy, and, when they need them for an
assignment, they pull them out of there and send them around the world. Do you
(CROSS-TALK)
T: I worked for the National
Institute of Health for a while, and actually I fell under the National
Security Council, NSA.
A: Well, now, when you were
over there for the National Institute of Health, what are you doing, looking
through the magnifying glasses or what? I mean,?
T: No?
A: What do they do? Do they
just - do they send you for research over there?
T: That's right. They just,
you know, send the data to us, and answering partially what you're saying now
is, part of what I did, in spying on the spies, was, was basically the
alignment. Our group was alignment to - aligned those spies to ensure that they
followed the dictates of what we needed to do. Others had the job of actually
spying on them and collecting data, finding skeletons in the closet. And if
they couldn't find that, then we would put them in a position of compromise, so
that - and record that position, so that we were able to effectively neutralize
them.
And that's what we did out
of the NIH, basically.
A: Well, you're talking
about blackmail.
T: That's what I'm talking
about.
A: Yes.
And how many were in your
group? You said your group, you don't know about the other groups.
T: Our group had about 80
officers in it.
A: And were they all CIA?
T: Oh no. No.
As a matter of fact, we had
Danish intelligence, Israeli intelligence, and British intelligence with us.
A: And FBI?
T: And FBI, yes.
A: How many U.S. government
agents?
FBI, CIA?
T: Primarily U.S.
government, probably about 50 or 60.
A: What agencies, besides
the FBI and CIA?
T: FBI, CIA, Department of
Defense, Defense Intelligence Agency, NSA, the whole gamut.
A: And would all of this
group report back to the head of the CIA, like Colby or George Bush?
T: All of us reported back to
three different leaders, yes.
A: Yes.
T: Whoever the commander of
the unit was.
A: OK. And he was back over
at CIA Headquarters, I guess.
T: Yes, or?
A: In the field?
T: Or in the Executive
Office Building.
A: OK.
And so, let's say that you,
as a spy spying on spies, wanted to find out about Mr. XYZ, CIA, whether or not
he was complying with instructions, regulations, et cetera, would that be what
you'd do, you'd go check him out, run surveillances on him, or what?
T: That's part of what the
groups would do. I wasn't involved in that portion very often - off and on, on
occasion, I would be on - the best way to spy on a spy is to get him, give him
a more exotic mission to work on, something that he has complete control
himself on, to see how he operates, see what he does. And we would send a man
along, in the background, to keep an eye on what's going on. Usually it was a
set-up, anyhow.
A: Well, now, how did you do
that? I mean, what would you be doing? What kind of a mission would you give
him?
T: Perhaps an intelligence
mission in - well, let me give you one specific example. An intelligence
mission in Amsterdam. We sent a man to Amsterdam to collect some data. He was a
CIA man, and we needed some information on two of the leaders in Amsterdam. He
was given carte blanche on what he was to do, and we approached him with
Israeli intelligence personnel to see if he would sell off some information -
some of the information that he was gathering, and certainly he did.
A: Oh, so he was a traitor
to the country, then?
T: That's what he was.
A: Well, used a pretext of
being Mossad, is that what you're saying?
T: That's correct - well,
no, we didn't need a pretext, we had them right in our office.
(LAUGHTER)
A: What happened to him?
T: Oh. That particular man
wasn't with us any longer.
(LAUGHTER)
A: Well, did he go to jail
or is he a whistle-blower or what?
T: Normally, those men would
not go to jail. They - we had another place for them to go.
A: Bye-bye, huh?
T: That's right.
A: You're talking about
assassinations, killings.
T: That's correct.
A: OK.
And OK, let's go back to
some of these other agencies, like, did you have DEA in this group with you?
T: We didn't have DEA with
us, and on several occasions we supported DEA and ATF operations. My particular
expertise was, I can fly, I can fly a helicopter into a country and out of a
country, I can fly an airplane into a country and out of a country with my
ATC[air traffic controller] background and knowledge of radar. I know how to go
in, and I know how to go out, and no one will ever know we were there.
A: Uh huh.
Now, are you also - were you
trained for special forces then?
T: Yes, I was.
A: OK.
Tell us a little more about
your training besides that and special forces.
T: Ah, gee! Ummh?
A: Firearms, of course.
T: Firearms, NBC.,
electronics training - heavy electronics training?
A: In wiretaps and all that
sort of thing?
T: That's correct.
A: Yes.
T: Nuclear, biological, and
chemical training, how to utilize the weapons properly, maximum utilization of
weapons, and so forth.
A: And how about going
behind enemy lines, walking into a house at night, and them not even knowing
you're there.
T: E&E (sp?) training,
sure.
(LAUGHTER)
A: That's happened to me, by
the way.
T: Yes.
A: I've noticed - several
times I've noticed something disappeared off my desk, and I figured the boys in
the business did it.
T: Yes.
A: Would that be normal?
T: The boys are busy, that's
correct.
A: Would that be normal for
somebody like me?
T: Sure.
(CROSS-TALK)
T: ? FBI agent, as any
agent, as any intelligence or law-enforcement agent in the United States, you
are one of our targets.
A: Aha! And I'm probably a
target right today, aren't I?
T: I would say you probably
are, Ted.
A: I've seen every sign of
it, yes.
T: Yes.
Our?
A: Is there something you
wanted to mention?
W: Yes, I've had visits. I
think Gene could tell you who Bill Kelso (sp?) is, William Kelso (sp?). I've
also had the same thing, to where they' ve tried from time to time to come in
to siphon materials, should we say?
A: Well, I put something - I
put a letter on my desk one night, right on top, because I was going to fax it
first thing in the morning, and I got up the next morning, and it was gone.
And what I've seen, I've
seen other signs too.
On one occasion, I know they
put a penny on my bed. Does that - did that mean anything to you, to put a
penny on my bed, at the foot of the bed?
T: No, not necessarily. You
know, different agents have different calling-cards.
A: That was his
calling-card, then?
T: Yes.
A: And do they usually leave
little calling-cards behind when they do that?
T: Sure. They're saying with
a penny is, your life isn't worth a penny.
A: Oh, is that what it is?
T: That's what it is.
A: Well, it's worth a lot
more than that to me, I think.
(LAUGHTER)
And I've got news for 'em.
I'm not through either. I haven't done all my whistle-blowing either.
T: Hah!
A: So, would they have - for
somebody like me, would they have one guy assigned to me, or would they have a
team assigned to me?
T: Depending on the mission
and the goals of the mission, you may have a whole team assigned to you, you
may have one person, you may have people coming in and out of your life, you
know, not necessarily full-time, just, you know, here, let's spend a week with
this guy and go after him. There are so many out there that we have to align.
A: OK, we'll be right back,
folks.
(BREAK)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This posting begins a set of
installments of a set of radio interviews of Gene "Chip" Tatum. The
interviews, by Ted Gunderson, took place in May 1997. Like the earlier
materials for the interviews of Gordon Novel, "WACO -- A Carefully Planned
Event," I am receiving these materials from dawnal.
However, this time dawnal
has sent me tapes, and I am transcribing from them. So I can vouch for the
presence of the words on tape this time.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Part II
A: We're back, with guest
today Gene Tatum, 25-year CIA deep-cover agent, and Stu Webb, whistleblower.
And, Gene, say, if I travel
city to city, would they put different fellas on me as I move around, or would
they have the same team travel with me?
T: We might put a three-tier
team on you, or something like that, sure.
A: What does a
"three-tier team" mean?
T: Where you don't have the
same faces around you at one time. If you get on a one-way trip from here to -
say, you leave Dallas, you're going to Denver, and you're stopping through
Chicago or something, we'll have a man with you from Denver to Chicago, and
then another one from Chicago on in to?
A: While on the airplane?
T: Right, and then another
one will pick you up on the ground in Denver.
A: And then they run a
surveillance that way.
T: Sure.
A: Right. Well, I've known
of surveillances on the airplane. I was, I mean, suspicious of it, because of
certain situations and actions that took place.
Gene, what about your - one
of your first assignments, let's say, right after you - you went through
special forces, did the CIA recruit you right out of special forces?
T: No?
A: (CROSS-TALK) special
forces afterwards?
T: As a combat controller,
we were put through Army special forces schools, to include - as a matter of
fact, even to include diving-school, but I wasn't recruited until after our
captivity, until after Operation Red Rock, and my part in Operation Red Rock
was quite by being in the wrong place at the right time.
A: Operation Red Rock, was
that the raid on the Cambodian airport?
T: Right, on the main
airport in Phnom Penh, that's correct, and I replaced the commo, U.S. Army
Special Forces green beret commo person, who had broken his leg on a jump about
a week before the mission was to kick off.
A: And you did so well that
they brought you in then after that?
T: No, it's not that I did
so well, I knew too much.
A: Ah!
And so you either come
aboard or you're terminated.
T: That was just about the
choice.
A: Yes.
T: You know?
A: They made that clear with
you?
T: A 19-year-old kid, I had
no doubt, you know, that I could work well with them.
A: Yes.
Up until that there's two
factions in the intelligence community now, there's the old-timers that realize
- in fact, I sat down with a CIA agent here a year or so ago, and he told me -
he says, "You know," he said, "for years I felt I was helping my
country and working with my country, solving the problem, and then all of a
sudden I woke up, and I realized I was part of a problem," because of all
the activity he was involved in and the horrible things that he was forced to
do and forced to carry out some of his assignments.
I've been told that there's
two factions, there's the old-timers and the young gung-ho type, is that true?
T: I think that's true, and,
even in business, it's the people who are on the inner circle, and people who
are outside of the inner circle. As a young intelligence-officer, you're just
out there and you're gung-ho, charging forward, protecting the American people
and the American dream, but, after you move up through the ranks and you become
part of the administration of whatever, you start to see what's really going
on, and you get a more full picture, rather than a compartmentalized picture.
A: And then, as you move up
into the ranks, you realize that some of the things you are doing are not in
the best interests of our country?
T: Absolutely.
Have you got any other
thoughts on how you're establishing this base, from which we can work?
Gene.
T: You know, during Vietnam,
many of the people who ended up as prisoners in Vietnam, I think were
approached simply through debriefings, and it was - the decision was made then
whether the agency wanted to recruit them then, or how they wanted to go about
doing things.
I think?
A: Which prisoners?
T: Prisoners of war from
Vietnam.
A: From Vietnam, OK.
T: That's correct.
A: Yes.
T: You know, they've pretty
well shown their oats at that point, and the agency is real interested in
someone who can keep their mouth shut.
A; OK.
And so, what else, in that
regard?
T: In that regard, also, and
in what we talked about just a moment ago, with the older agents, I think
what's important is for us to think about today - today the director of the CIA
is nothing more than a political position. You don't necessarily have a man
with the background needed to run that agency.
Just as in the FBI, you
don't necessarily have - I think our intelligence agencies are lacking
leadership, right now.
A: Ah! That's the understatement
of the year!
Gene, they have - ever since
J. Edgar Hoover died, they have put judges - the only person they put in there
with any experience was Clarence Kelly (sp?), and he did a good job, but they
put these judges in there, and of course Louis Freeh, he's a former judge, but
he's also a former U.S. Attorney, and a former FBI agent.
We had somebody on our show
here recently who was able to document - and he claimed he'd documented - the
fact that he was working a CIA covert operation on Long Island, New York - he's
an FBI agent, a 21-year veteran, and he found out that it was actually CIA, and
he reported to his supervisor in New York City. He did nothing about it. He
reported it to the judge, Sessions, director of the FBI, he did nothing, didn't
even respond to the letter. And then he wrote to Congress.
And do you know who his
supervisor was in New York City? Louis Freeh.
T: That's right.
A: So, of course, Louis
Freeh became a FBI supervisor, resigned, became a U.S. Attorney, resigned,
became a federal judge, resigned, became director of the FBI. That was his
little plum for keeping his mouth shut, obviously, right?
T: That's right.
A: That's the way they
operate.
T: And if the people out
there understand this, that an intelligence agency is no better than the small
intelligence groups that are set up by each operative. That's what makes the
Mossad such a successful intelligence agency in human intelligence, humint, the
fact that they have a community of people out there providing information, and
they have set up, you know, the Kochsas (sp?), which are the actual agents,
have set up their own intelligence network, each Kochsa, and the same is with
the American intelligence, U.S. intelligence. And it's no better than the
intelligence group that each agent sets up?
A: Right.
We'll be right back. It's
time for a quick break.
(BREAK)
A: Gene Tatum, 25-year CIA
deep-cover agent, and Stu Webb, whistleblower.
Gene, by the way, and Stu
also, that FBI agent that tried to expose that CIA covert operation, not to the
public, but through the channels, thinking he was, well, he's an all-American
guy, right? By the way, he was a highly-decorated Vietnam veteran, and was a
lieutenant colonel in the reserve. He's now serving 30 to 50 years for sexually
- supposedly sexually molesting a child. Isn't that kind of a kicker, huh?
T: Is that Mr. Thau (sp?)?
A: Yes.
W: Yes.
A: You know about it, the
case?
T: Yes, I do.
A: Were you involved in
that?
T: No, I wasn't.
A: What do you know about
the case?
T: You can bet that he was
effectively neutralized.
A: That was what they did,
right?
T: That's correct.
A: Do you have any personal
knowledge about the case?
T: Not direct, but indirect,
from friends....
A: Can you tell us about it?
T: ....still active in the
community.
I'd rather not right now,
simply because of the people I'm working with and trying to write that.
A: OK.
Well, I understand, if I ask
you any questions that are - if you don't feel like answering?
T: He's getting ready to go
into the appellate level, and we have some information we're providing for
that. And we don't want to?
A: Yes, of course.
Well, if I ask you any
questions that are going to create any problems for anybody, of course I won't
- tell me, it's not a problem for me.
Let's move on over, and what
about the MIA's and POW's, Gene?
What do you know about that?
T: I know that, in the late
70's, I was sent to Italy to infiltrate Yugoslavia and the Communist Bloc
countries, Bulgaria and so forth, looking for the possibility.
We had received information
early that there was a possibility of POW's/MIA's who were moved through Burma
into this - into - sent to Communist Bloc countries to be held there, so we
started looking, and I would report - every Monday, I would have to go back to
Aviano Air Base, to the command-and-control center, where we had a secure line,
and call in to Washington Switch, and speak with the director, and report our
findings. I know that we (AUDIO GAP)
T: found two - whatever
happened to those two men I don't know.
A: You found two that had
been sent from Vietnam over into the Soviet Bloc countries, is that what you're
saying?
T: That's correct.
A: And what happened -- you
don't have any idea what happened to them? Was it ever publicized? Of course
not.
T: No, no, no.
A: Do you know Red McDaniel
, who's the head of the American Defense Institute (sp?)?
T: Yes, I do.
A: Did you report it to him,
eventually?
T: We sent a letter to Red.
I did it out of prison, and I never received a return, but it doesn't mean I
didn't get an answer, it just means I didn't receive it.
A: Well, do you know how to
get ahold of him now? If you don't, I do, I know him very well.
T: I think my wife has that
in her - on her computer.
A: OK.
Do you have any other knowledge
about POW's/MIA's? I feel it's a massive cover-up, do you?
T: Oh, I know in Vietnam -
the knowledge I have about POW's and MIA's, as almost having been one, is I was
tortured by a Chinese - Red Chinese officer, and I'm very upset about the fact
that our negotiations with the Chinese right now include land-ownership in this
country.
A: You don't think it's a
good idea for them to have part of the Long Beach Navy Yard?
(LAUGHTER)
T: I don't think it's a good
idea for them to be outside of the mainland of China, myself.
A: For the second hour.
The first hour, folks, for
those of you who may not have been in on the first hour, Gene primarily gave us
a little background on Pegasus, is that how you pronounce it?
T: Pegasus.
A: Pegasus, I - what does
that mean, by the way, Gene?
T: That's the winged horse
of folklore.
A: OK.
And he was a member of
Pegasus, which was an organization within the CIA that spies on the spies in
the CIA and tests them and so forth.
By the way, how did
[Aldrich] Ames ever get away from you?
T: Pardon me?
A: How did Ames get away
from you?
(LAUGHTER)
T: I have no idea.
A: Look?
T: Because they took me out
of it.
(LAUGHTER)
A: Well, checking on Ames,
the spies on spies did not do a good job.
T: Somebody needs to check
on that person, that's for sure.
A; Well, hopefully, he's
gone.
Not dead, but, you know,
he's out of there.
T: That's right.
A: And then Gene was telling
us about Operation Red Rock, which was a raid on the Cambodian airport, and at
that time, of course, Cambodia was our ally and our friend, and we were just
getting into the MIA/POW issue, and Gene stated that in the late 1970's he went
to Italy looking for POW's,. and he heard that some of them had been
transferred out of the Far East, into some of the Soviet Bloc countries, and he
found two of them, reported back, and we don't know what happened to those two
POW's.
Gene, those two POW's, was
there a possibility you could have contacted their wives or something, or what?
Do you remember their names?
T: One was named Hill or
Hull, I recall that. The other I honestly don't recall.
You know, a lot of years,
and a lot of names have gone past.
A: Well, I'm sure, because
of the huge cover-up on the MIA/POW's, which I'm convinced of, and, as Red
McDaniel, who was head of the American census, he says it's a cover-up, I'm
sure that our government did not notify the relatives that this Hill or Hull
and the other individual were alive and POW's. Would you feel - wouldn't you
feel the same way, Gene?
T: Oh, yes, absolutely.
And I think Hill was a
pilot, a captain, I believe, or a lieutenant. I forget which service he was in.
A: Well, if anybody's out
there that knows of a pilot named "Hill" - do you think it's Hill or
Hull?
T: I almost think it's Hill,
but it may be Hull.
A: Named Hill or possibly
Hull, call the radio-station, and maybe we can help you out, as far as your
loved one is concerned.
And then Gene was talking
about - we were talking a little bit about the Chinese situation, and how he
was tortured in Vietnam by a Chinese officer, and Gene's a little upset about
the Chinese coming in and taking over the Long Beach Naval Station.
And do you shop at COSCO, by
the way?
(LAUGHTER)
T; No.
I've only been out for a
week. I haven't hardly shopped anywhere yet,
A: Well, COSCO is - for the
benefit of the rest of you folks that don't know it, they're owned by the Red
Chinese - they're owned by the Chinese, I assume that they're red.
You've been out for a week.
You were in jail?
Just got out of jail?
T: For - I just left federal
prison. I spent the last two years in federal prison.
A: And you've been out a
week?
T: Been out since April 4th.
I guess that's two weeks ago.
A: Well, congratulations!
Where were you - where did they have you stationed?
T: I was stationed at Jessup
(sp?).
A: And where is that?
T: Jessup, Georgia - is in
southern Georgia.
A: Southern Georgia. Is it a
country club, or is it a one or a six security?
T: It's both.
A: One to six, all?
T: They have it all there,
yes.
A: Depending on where you -
what building they put you in.
T: Sure, that's one of their
newest facilities, that they use for the Congress persons to come in and see
what the feds can do.
A: What do you mean,
"see what the feds can do"?
T: See - you know, to look
at the prison-system as a?
A: A model?
T: Sure.
That's one of the model
units.
A: Well, how did you get
out?
T: We had appealed,
initially. Actually, after the conviction - I was charged with treason,
initially, and told by two Secret Service agents that, if I didn't give up the
documents that I had in my possession that exposed all the Iran-Contra
drug-running and who was involved in it, that I would be charged with treason
and spend life-imprisonment, if not given the death-penalty, and I said,
"Well, let's dance, boys!"
A: The Secret Service is in
on it now, huh?
T: That's correct.
A: Well, how did they get in
the act?
I mean, everybody wants to
get into the act. Isn't that what Jimmy Durante used to say?
T: I believe that they
represent one of the people that are in the flight-plans.
A: That being who, Bush?
T: Bush and Clinton, yes.
A: OK.
And we're going to get into
more details about the drug-operation. But when were you charged with this
crime?
T: 1995.
A: And two Secret Service
agents, you care to mention their names?
T: No, I won't get into
that.
A: OK.
T: Only because I can't. I
don't know their names?
A: Well, that's all right.
If you don't want to mention names, just tell us.
(CROSS-TALK)
A: So two Secret Service agents
came to you and said, "Give up the documents , or you go to jail, or maybe
life in prison," or maybe they're going to 10-7 you, meaning, put you out
of service forever. And you said, "Let's dance." And what happened
after that?
T: I published those documents.
A: Good for you! That's why
you're alive today.
T: That's correct.
Well, no, I published the
documents that only go as high as Mr. Bush. There are some people who we
collected goods on for our retirement, myself and other members of our group, and
keep those tucked away, and I think that's really what keeps us alive.
We intend to go forward with
this information on Bush and his underlings?
A: Now, wait a minute. So
the second group of documents relate to Clinton?
T: No, the first group of
documents relate to Clinton.
A: OK. We'll be right back,
folks. Time for a quick break.
(BREAK)
A: And we're back, folks,
back with my guests Gene Tatum, 25-year CIA deep-cover agent, and Stu Webb, a
whistleblower personified..
A: We have a caller on the show.
Where are you from?
DAN: From Michigan.
A: Do you have a question
for our guests?
DAN: Yes, I do. I hope it's
in keeping with the theme of your program today.
A: We're going to try to do
that. Yesterday I got off on North Dakota, kind of blew the (GARBLED WORDS), to
be honest with you.
DAN: My question is of
extreme importance to me. Do you know of any information or?......
T: Well, yes, sure, and I
think the basic plans are to - even though, you know, militias are - I think
the government's trying to give them a persona of being a very - offensive in
nature, but militias are very defensive in nature. They're there to defend our
rights, and defend our country, and they're not going to lash out until they're
backed into a corner and see that we have nothing left.
So it's a defensive posture
that our militias have, not an offensive posture.
However, what the government
does is, they'll take - they'll neutralize them. You know, they'll take an ATF
agent, or they'll take an agent, or they'll put a confidential informant in,
who has been trained on explosives and so forth, and talk these people into the
fact that one day you're going to be put in a corner, and that AR-15 isn't
going to be enough, you're going to have to have something more. And so they'll
get into an illegal weapon or two, or perhaps a pipe-bomb, and then they'll
turn them over, and that does in that little group, doesn't it?
A: Well, like Randy Weaver.
T: Right. Exactly right.
A: You know, they had a
sawed-off shotgun that was a quarter-inch too long, I guess, or too short.
And what about this red,
blue, and green list? Do you know anything about that?
T: No, I don't.
A; Well, the red list are
the ones that are going to be picked up and executed before martial law, the
blue will be the ones that will be picked up and executed after martial law,
and the green will be the ones they think they can repatriate. I've got
information on that.
T; Yes.
A: It's Operation Garden
Potter (sp?), I think, is the secret word.
Do you have any more
questions, Dan?
DAN: No. I think that about
covered it, but let me just ask you,?
My guest is Mr. Gene
"Chip" Tatum, a great American hero, folks, and Mr. Stu Webb, a
whistleblower and also a hero. These fellas have stepped forward at the risk of
their lives to tell us what's going on and what's gone on in the past, exposing
the graft and the corruption and the dirty deeds of this shadow government that
we are living with today.
And we have a caller, Cliff
(sp?), from Colorado, but before we go to Cliff, I'd like to mention - hi,
Cliff, are you there?
CLIFF: Yes, sir.
A: I'd like to mention,
folks, that Gene has so much information - and Stu too, but we're going to
concentrate on Gene at first?.
(AUDIO GAP)
T: Those documents I said
that we published.
A: And that, you call those
the "Clinton Chronicles"?
T: The "Tatum
Chronicles."
A: Tatum. OK, they're yours.
T: They're mine. They're DoD
flight-plans from Central and South America that were filed with the government
of Honduras. When we landed, we noted on the back of the flight-plans some of
the things that happened, we received certified copies of those in 1995 from
the Honduran government.
A: So those are available to
the public. Want to -- I'll be sure to - be sure to get me a copy too, Gene.
T: You bet. I'll shoot a
copy right out to you.
A: Yes, and also I'd like to
have a hard copy of this article from "Nexus" magazine.
T: Well, I'll send you a
copy of the "Nexus" magazine. I have to commend Mr. Duncan and his
staff on that. They did a wonderful job with it.
A: That's a great, great
article.
T: And there's another part
coming out in their next issue.
A: Oh, a great article!
It was published in England,
right?
T: Australia.
A: Australia! OK.
T: However, it is available
in the United States, and I have a number for them, also.
A: Give us that number.
T: That's 815-253-6464.
A: OK. And that's for
"Nexus" article - "Nexus" magazine.
T: In Compton (sp?),
Illinois. The name of the article was "Boss Hogs of - of Drugs" is on
the cover, and then "The Pegasus File" inside.
A: OK.
I want to get back to Gene
and ask him some more questions in a minute. But, Cliff, the caller from
Colorado, you have some questions you want to ask.
CLIFF: Yes. I had a couple
of questions, and then I had a comment.
I guess let me ask - make
the comment first. I joined the service in 1957, I joined the National Guard in
Texas, went to college, I was going to - I wanted to be in the FBI, believe it
or not. You had to be a pre-law or accounting major, if you recall, Ted.
A: Right.
CLIFF: I just couldn't
handle accounting. So I went in the Air Force ROTC, and went on into the Air
Force, and I did a five-year hitch, and I was in the T&R[or material?]
Transport, and got out in '67, and all I wanted to do was make some money, and,
I mean, you know, legitimately, went down into California and went into the
cattle business.
But my point was?
A: Are you rich today,
caller?
CLIFF: No. Am I in the
cattle business, rich? The only one I know is Hillary.
A: OK.
(LAUGHTER)
CLIFF: And those were paper
cows.
A: OK.
CLIFF: I also want to tell
you how much I admire your guests. They are true patriots.
A: These are real Americans,
folks.
CLIFF: Yes, I'm just honored
to be able to call in and talk to you folks. Let me say something real quickly
here. I recall, in the Air Force, we were involved in logistics, as you folks
well know, and I remember all of the paper-shuffling and the numbers-games to
keep your fuel-allotments, and everything was kind of an illusion, and I had a
cousin who flew off the Kitty Hawk, he was a good guy(sp?) and back on the
Phantom, and then he moved up to A-6 driver, and went on to the Pentagon, and
became a captain in the Navy, and I went to several BOQ parties with him, on
the Kitty Hawk, when we were both in California, and they talked about the
sorties flown in Vietnam just to - no armaments, just to make a run and keep
your fuel-allotment.
And I guess what I'm saying
is, as a veteran, I always thought the phony numbers thing started in Vietnam,
until I read Craig Roberts's (sp?) "Medusa File," the book, and I
guess it started way back before that, in the Second World War.
So, I guess what I'm saying,
and what I wanted to ask you gentlemen, where - when did all of this lying,
cheating, traitorous activity on the part of bureaucrats - when do you folks
really believe it started? I mean, it's out of control now, but?
T: I think with Cain and
Abel.
(LAUGHTER)
CLIFF: Did we ever have an
honorable federal government?
A: Well, not in my lifetime,
I don't think. How about you, Gene?
T: I know that there has
been a lot of - what's the word I'm looking for?
Disinformation from the
government, disinformation for years and years.
CLIFF: Could I ask one more
question?
A: Yes, real quick.
Stay on the line, Cliff.
(BREAK)
A: And we have - let's see -
Cliff from Colorado on the line, but before, folks, we go back to Cliff - I
want to give an answer also to his last question - I wanted you to make a note
of when we'll have Gene back,
In answer to your question,
when did all this start, Cliff,?
CLIFF: Yes, sir.
A: I think that - I think
Gene has the right answer, but I tell you what. I've got documentation that
goes back to 1776. Adam Vissow (sp?), who established the Illuminati, I think
that's when really they made a first - the first real organized effort to
control the media, to control the population, and to take over and destroy the
sovereignty of various nations, and to destroy our religions. And I have a
video, a four-hour lecture that I give, on the Illuminati, and how it affects
our lives today. And if any of you folks are interested in that four-hour
lecture - and it's dynamite stuff, I've been told - been complimented many
times on it - you can send $35 to Ted Gunderson, Post Office Box 18000-18000-259,
Las Vegas, Nevada 89109. That's $35 to Ted Gunderson, Post Office 18000-259,
Las Vegas, Nevada 89109.
Do you want to add anything
to that, Gene?
T: No, I don't think so. You
know, that pretty well says it.
I know that, on the Pegasus
side, they've been in place since the 50's.
CLIFF: Well, Ted, let me
comment on that, and then ask one question, and I'll get off the line.
A: OK.
CLIFF: You know, that means
- if we're talking about the Masons' involvement - that means that George
Washington was involved.
A: No. I don't think so.
CLIFF: Do you think the
Masons are involved in the Illuminati?
A: Well, there's a - OK, the
mega - the Masons are like the Pegus (sp?). Am I not pronouncing that right,
Gene?
T: Pegasus.
A: Pegasus.
CLIFF: That's the flying
horse of mythology.
A: Yes. So, like the
Pegasus,?
CLIFF: Yes.
A: ? there's a secret
society within the Masons that's involved, not the Masons per se.
CLIFF: Well, this may or may
not come as a shock to you. I'm a 32nd-degree Mason?
A: Yes.
CLIFF: 5th generation.
A: Right.
CLIFF: And if there's a - if
there is, I've never seen any inkling of it in all my years as a Mason. And I'm
not saying it doesn't exist, but, if it is, it's a damn well-kept secret.
(CROSS-TALK)
CLIFF: If they ever knock on
my door, and say, "Cliff, you're a 32nd-degree Mason, we want you to do
such and such," I'm going to tell them where they can go.
A: No, no, Cliff, you don't
understand.
CLIFF: OK.
A: What they do - and this
is also part of the satanic movement - is this satanism overlaps into the
drugs, the Illuminati, pedophilia, child-kidnapping, prostitution, and what
they do is, they will size you up. If they think that you - they will test you,
without you knowing it, and if they think you would be a good candidate to
become part of their secret society, then they will test you one way or
another, and then they go from there.
CLIFF: Well, I must have
flunked.
A: You probably flunked,
yes.
CLIFF: Well, one last
question, and I'll hang up. Thanks for bearing with me. This series of
interviews you do with Gene,??
A: Yes?
CLIFF: ? would you make -
put them in some kind of a series that we could buy the whole set?
A: Well, that's going to be
up to the station there.
CLIFF: I'll talk to Don
Wiedeman (sp?). Is that who I need to talk to?
A: Yes, Don Wiedeman, I'm
sure that he'll do that and will include this show today.
CLIFF: One last shot, and
I'll shut up.
A: Well, that's all right.
CLIFF: In Longmont ,
Colorado, the First Christian Church, a very large church, we're starting
what's called a "Freedom Forum."
And we want to invite people
like yourself and Gene to come and speak to our group, and I just want you to
be aware that there's a group of law-enforcement officers, some federal, some
state, some county, that are involved in our group, and there is a rising among
the people to stop this un-American activity, and that's what it is. And God
bless you guys!
A: Well, I'm available for
lectures. I have another video, about the New World Order, that's?
CLIFF: And Gene.
T: Yes.
CLIFF: You and Ted both, the
old trappers say, "Watch your top-knot."
T: You got it!
A: Another saying is its six
o'clock, right, Gene?
T: That's right.
(CLIFF HANGS UP)
A: Yes.
OK. By the way, folks, let
me correct that. That Illuminati four-hour video is $35, and it talks about the
Illuminati, how to fix our lives today.
Yes, I'm available for
lectures. I'm on assignment right now, but, when I go out of here, I'll be more
than happy to go round and tour the country. And, if you want to hook up with
me, Gene, some time, let me know. We'll do it together.
T: Certainly would, Ted.
That'd be interesting.
A: Yes, I think it'd be a -
maybe we can do an all-day or a two-day lecture or a seminar on this.
T: I'm restricted to 11
counties in Florida right now, but, with notice, I can leave the state.
A: Well, I can fly to
Florida too, you know.
T: OK.
A: Anyway, if any of you
folks are interested in lectures by Gene and/or me, you can feel free to call
my office, 702-876-5208, and somewhere down the road we will do just that.
A: OK. John, from Colorado,
John, what have you got there, my friend?
Do we have a John from
Colorado calling?
JOHN: Yes, I am.
A: Hi, John!
JOHN: Hi.
A: Where are you from in
Colorado?
JOHN: Denver.
A: Denver, OK, I was raised
there up till I was 12 years old.
Go ahead. Do you have a
question?
JOHN: No wonder you have
some common sense.
(LAUGHTER)
No, you have a lot.
A: Well, but then - you know
what happened to me, don't you?
JOHN: What?
A: I ended up going to the
University of Nebraska, so those Colorado fans disowned me.
JOHN: Well, that's a good
combination, though.
A: You had a question for
Gene Tatum?
JOHN: I do.
First of all, I wanted to
know what month or which issue of that "Nexus" magazine was.
T: That "Nexus" is
volume four, number three, the April-May '97, their latest edition.
JOHN: OK?
T: And the June and July
issue will also have the second part of the article.
JOHN: Great!
And then I had another
question on the POW's. You mentioned earlier why they kept some of them and not
other ones. Could you explain that a little further?
T: I don't know why they
kept some of them. On my side, I was just given the mission to - tasked with
looking for some, in that arena, and I was, quite frankly, very surprised that
they were even looking over there, but they were definitely looking over there.
JOHN: OK, because I wondered
if they were using them for mind-control. In what setting did you find them?
T: We actually found them in
Bulgaria.
JOHN: What were they doing?
T: I have no idea.
JOHN: Oh, OK.
T: I just know that the men
were being held in prison in Bulgaria.
JOHN: OK, in prison, then.
T: Right.
JOHN: Oh, I didn't know if
they'd be workers or whatever?
And then, the last question,
sometimes?
A: You have to hold this
line there, John, we're going to have to take a break.
(BREAK)
A: We're back. My guest is
Mr. Gene "Chip" Tatum, who is a 25-year CIA deep-cover agent, and on
the line is John from Denver, Colorado.
OK, John. You had another
question?
JOHN: Yes, I did, and he
doesn't have to answer it now, but I hope in the next, either today or in the
next series he can answer, how he was the only two survivors out of - what? -
17 that went into Cambodia, or whatever that was.
T: Out of 13.
JOHN: Out of 13.
Because I love war stories,
and I think that'd be interesting.
T: If Ted doesn't mind at
the time, I don't mind telling it?
A: Let's do it right now.
T: OK.
A: That's what the show's
all about.
JOHN: I'll just hang up and
listen, sir.
A: OK, John.
JOHN: Thanks a lot.
T: We had effectively
completed our mission on the airport in Phnom Penh, very successful, but,
unknown to us, there were a group of Montagnards that were assigned as a
transportation-point for us, to leave the area of operations, and get back to
our home in Nan Kam Phnom (sp?), Thailand - NKP, Thailand is where we based out
of. We didn't know that they had orders to?
A: Kill you.
T: ? to kill us.
So, I was a young kid on the
block. I wasn't particularly adept in the arena. However, the special
operations people that were with us were well-seasoned.
I mean, my idea of shooting
the AK-47's we were carrying at the time was, squeeze that trigger till it
stopped, and I wish that the clips were bigger.
But we were ultimately
captured. We were tortured. Many of us were killed. I was severely beaten,
severely tortured, and, as a matter of fact, when it was all said and done, in
a coma for weeks, from rifle-fire. We were liberated by a routine patrol of
U.S. Marines, didn't know we were in the encampment, got in a fire-fight with
the Vietnamese, and - it was North Vietnamese - and three of us were running
out of the camp. One of them received a gut-shot and died. The other two of us
received severe head-wounds, and we were both in comas with brain-trauma.
A: Well, what about the
other - what was it? - 11, 10?
T: Right. The rest were
killed through a series - our captain, who I call "My Way," and I've
just finished a manuscript on it, and that was the most difficult thing I've
done in my life, was to try to recall the events of that. But My Way, who was
our leader - and I've used a code-name for him - was wearing a St. Christopher
cross. The Red Chinese major who was in charge of the interrogation skinned him
alive and crucified him in front of us, holding bayonets and knives to our
heads, to make sure that we watched the torture, telling him that he would die
as his Savior died.
Those were the types of
things that they did to us. But you have to understand, we were dressed in
sapper uniforms, we weren't dressed in U.S. uniforms. We wouldn't speak to
them. We had nothing to say to them. They didn't know exactly who we were or
where we were from. They only knew that we were dressed in these North Vietnamese
uniforms, and we weren't North Vietnamese.
A: Did the families
subsequently learn what happened to their loved ones?
T: I don't know whether the
families ever have. I know I've been looking for the other survivor, my platoon
sergeant, Chuck, and most of the shows that I do, I put a call out to him, to
see if he can contact me. I know that he is still alive.
A: And you want to put his
name out now?
T: I just know
"Chuck."
A: Know "Chuck"?
T: Yes. We called him
"Pop" on the mission. His name was "Chuck." He was - he had
a wife and two kids, because we had put a phone-patch through to him from one
of our fire-bases, through a little base Mars station that we'd set up.
A: Where was he from? Do you
remember?
T: It was the Midwest
somewhere.
A: OK.
How sad! How sad!
What about some of the other
missions that you've been on that were similar to this?
T: In 1974 I was attached to
Air America. My job - I guess - near the end of Vietnam, Air America started
losing a lot of aircraft for some unknown reason. I think I know the reason.
Someone didn't want the men who flew those missions?
A: To survive?
T: That's correct.
I was?
A: Commonly called
"friendly fire."
T: That's right.
I was tasked to go in and
move the downed pilots from Air America, and then some of the U.S. pilots, into
fire-free zones, so that we could extract them. I was a communications
specialist. And that was my job, jump in, move 'em, and get 'em out.
A: OK.
And what's the status on
this list you talked about earlier in the show. You said there was a list for
Clinton, and that was what you have available?
T: That's the "Tatum
Chronicles"?
A: Yes.
The "Tatum
Chronicles" are basically flight-plans from Honduras, with extemporaneous
notes put on the back by myself and my crew-members, when certain things
happened. When we'd fly a mission, and we'd find a cooler marked "Medical
Supplies" on board, and we opened the cooler to see what kind of medical
supplies they were, and we found 100 bags of cocaine, we started questioning
everything that went on.
A: And those were labeled
for medicine?
T: That's correct. They were
- some were donor-parts, some were vaccines, some were medical supplies, all
having to do with medical, simply because, under the Boland Act, enacted by
Congress, the United States military and the United States intelligence
community could not participate in the Nicaraguan revolution. We were
restricted from doing that, in other than humanitarian efforts, so they put me
under cover as a medevac pilot in the United States Army, flying in and out of
the Nicaraguan border.
A: You mentioned also
earlier, Gene, about, that this is what kept you alive, and you said that you
had a follow-up to this that's in hiding right now.
T: That's right. This book I
don't think is what's kept us alive. We - through the years, we understood what
would normally happen to people who get involved in black operations, rather
than in normal intelligence-gathering, because?
A: They get taken out?
T: That's correct.
So we started early, our
group did, in preparing for retirement, and we've tucked that away, those
tapes, and we took documents, and we put them on a videotape. We have
sound-recordings on videotape. Being who we were, we had access to the best in
technology, so we put a lot of stuff on data-base, like, in different areas
around the world.
A: And you say who
"we" were. Who is "we"?
Let's come back. We'll come
back in just a few minutes.
(BREAK)
All right. We're back with
Gene.
Now, when we left off, Gene,
gosh, there's so much information?
(AUDIO GAP)
There was another question I
wanted to ask you, and I should have written it down, but I didn't.
Do you remember what it was?
T; No. I know we and several
members of the operational subgroup I was with and their families, that's who
those tapes protect.
A: Right, yes, we were
talking about the tapes and so forth. And I was going to ask you how many
people are with you, and that was the question, but you may not want to mention
that.
T: There are several of us.
A: Several of you. OK.
T: That's correct.
A: Are these fellas in the
same position you're in?
T: No. A couple of them are
still active.
A: OK.
How are you protecting
yourself? You know they've got surveillances on you, they've got taps on you.
T: They're listening as we
speak.
A: I know, but do they know
who these other fellas are who are active.
T: No, they don't know who
they are.
A: And - but that's what I'm
saying to you. I mean, you've got to be real careful with that.
T: That's correct.
A: And are these other
fellas going to be com-gentlemen going to be coming forward, do you think?
T: I know two of them are
ready to. In the very near future, they'll be coming forward, yes.
A: All right. Let me know.
I'll put them on the show.
A: Folks, he gave us information
when he was here on the 23rd of April that should have shocked anybody, even a
veteran like me, who's been involved in this business for 48-some years. And,
on the 23rd of April, he gave us information, I think, that you never heard, or
never knew of. He talked about Operation Red Rock, he talked about the Pegasus,
he talked about how he was charged with treason, he talked about his exploits
and his experiences as a 25-year CIA deep-cover agent, and, in the
"Nexus" magazine, April and May 1997 - I'm going to read the first
paragraph, this tells it all about Chip Tatum:
"Veteran Special Forces
Air Combat Controller, 25-year CIA deep-cover agent; U.S. Army pilot flying
classified missions during the U.S. invasion of Grenada; Iran-Contra pilot
flying cocaine shipments labeled as medical supplies; and member of the
ultra-secret, international G-7-run Pegasus 'hit team' - this is the
extraordinary story of Gene 'Chip' Tatum."
Welcome to the show again,
Chip.
T: Thank you, Ted. A
pleasure to be here.
A: My pleasure.
Now, folks, we're going to
have a series of six shows. We've already had one on the 23rd. We have one
today. And we'll have a series for the next four days, a total of six shows, 12
hours. And if you want this tape - and I strongly urge you to get a copy of
this tape and make copies - I hope that the studio there in Colorado doesn't
mind me saying that, but make copies. We've got to get the word out. You can
have 12 hours of recording - and this is without the commercials - for $49.95.
And in order to obtain your order, you must call 800-205-6245, 800-205-6245,
$49, and I would assume you make that payable to American Freedom Network. If
there's any difference on how you make that check payable to, anybody else, let
me know, folks, here in the studio.
And so, you don't want to
miss this. Be sure to listen to the next five shows, including today, and
obtain the copy of your tape.
Now, for those of you who
only hear the first hour - this is a two-hour show - I will summarize the
information the next day of the second hour, for those of you in the first
hour, and of course you can also, as I said, buy a copy of the tape, a 12-hour
tape.
So how have you been since
you were on the show last time?
T: Very busy.
A: I bet you have.
(LAUGHTER)
You've done some other
shows, haven't you?
T: I do - I'm currently
doing about three to four shows a day, Ted.
A: Oh, fantastic!
And where are these, all
over the United States, all over the world, what?
T: All over the United
States.
A: All right. Well, we need
to get the word out.
Did you contact my source in
Mexico, that I gave to you, or did they return the call yet?
T: I contacted the source. I
haven't received a return call yet.
You know, the information is
pretty damning, and especially the information I have that includes a lot of
Mexican officials.
A: I know that, and that's -
maybe you'll never hear back from him, by the way. That's the way it goes. You
have to take your chances. I can understand why people would be concerned,
because there have been a number of journalists who have been murdered in
Mexico, as I recall, and this was a member of the journalism industry, or a
print media down there in Mexico.
Chip, kind of let's go over
kind of a couple of items that we talked about last - on the 23rd. What about
this Pegasus group? What is the Pegasus group? Now, you told us they were spies
on spies, right?
T: Initially, I think,
Pegasus was formed as a group to keep an eye on the intelligence community.
Then it evolved into a little more. You know, the intelligence community grew
to not only keeping an eye on the intelligence community, but gathering
information on politicians on certain committees, so that, if the needs be,
there was enough information there to approach those people on behalf of the
president, and twist their arm, I guess.
A: How would that approach
be?
I mean,?
T: I have no idea. On the
intelligence side, we would simply supply the information on that.
Then, in 19-I think it was
1981, there was a National Security Decision Directive 3 was signed by
President Reagan, which put intelligence in a completely new light. It took
what we knew as intelligence, the intelligence community, and placed all
intelligence assets under the vice president of the United States.
A: Well, that was George
Bush, because he was running the country anyway.
T: That's right.
But he wanted total control
on the books too.
A: And what - say you had
some information on a politician, and you wanted him to - are you saying that
you'd go in there and influence his vote?
T: No, not my section, no.
We were international. I didn't deal in that. That - but from what I
understand, that was done earlier, in the Pegasus group.
As time went on -- I didn't
join the unit until 1986. In 1986, our mission was completely different. It was
an international mission. We had Turkish intelligence, Danish intelligence,
British intelligence, and Israeli intelligence working in what I'm calling
"Pegasus" with us.
A: Well, let's go back to
the beginning. Let's dissect this Pegasus. I find this very fascinating, very
interesting. When was it established? Was it -- would it be 1981, or was it
prior to 1981?
T: No, I think it was right
after World War Two. Some of the old fellas in there had been around for quite
some time.
A: And what was their
mission?
T: Their mission at the time
was to spy on spies.
A: Now, this is the Pegasus
group - that's a group within the CIA, right?
T: That's correct.
A: So it's kind of like the
freemasonry, a secret society within a secret society.
T: Right.
A: And their mission was?
T: Kind of like a secret
government within the government.
A: A government within the
shadow government?
T: That's correct.
A: An arm of the shadow
government within the government itself?
And they're - that's - these
breaks are going to come round real fast.
(BREAK)
A: Gene "Chip"
Tatum, where'd you come up with that nickname "Chip"? Was it that
from childhood?
T: It is. I've - my first
name was Doyce (sp?). When I was a junior, my cousin's first name was Darcy
(sp?), when he was a junior, and my aunt, not my mother or his mother, said,
"These boys can't go through life as Doyce and Darcy," so she
nicknamed us "Chip" and "Skip."
A: Aha, excellent! That's -
I like that!
OK, we were going back. We
were going to dissect the Pegasus group. They were formed back, right after
World War Two, a mission to spy on the spies, and what did evolve out of that,
and when did it happen?
T: Well, you know, the old
OSS was done away with right after World War Two, and it was evolved into a
central intelligence-gathering unit, because all U.S. intelligence was never
filtered into one central intelligence agency. It was all their personal, or
their individual property, and they didn't share that property. So, you know,
intelligence really wasn't being shared between the military intelligence,
defense intelligence, FBI intelligence. It was all absolutely separate and
maintained separate.
So the idea was to put
together a centralized agency. That's the Central Intelligence Agency. That -
the man who runs the Central Intelligence Agency, the Director of Central
Intelligence, is the man who's responsible for correlating all this
intelligence data, analyzing it, and disseminating that back out.
But it doesn't quite work
like that, as I'm sure you understand, Ted. You know, the FBI intelligence
network really doesn't trust the Central Intelligence people, and the Central
Intelligence people don't trust the military intelligence people, and so the
sharing really doesn't go on.
The president wanted someone
that he could trust, so he formed his own small group of operatives which he
called "Pegasus." These were the people who worked and communicated
their information directly to the president of the United States. Pegasus maintained
their position with the president until just after the Kennedy assassination,
and then they were taken - I would say they were taken AWOL from the
president's direct control and put more in an international position, along
with the Johnson and Nixon administrations.
A: Well, now, what about the
National Security Council? Now, folks, NSC - is NSA, National Security Agency,
which really is responsible for communications, primarily around the world,
wiretaps and all that sort of thing, and monitoring communications,
international phone-calls, and now there's a National Security Council, and
that's directly under the White House. It's right out of the White House, not
answerable to Congress. What about them? Where do they fall into this
intelligence picture?
T: Well, today the NSC are
the ones who oversee the - who handle the special situation group, terrorist
incident working group, and the operational subgroups, which is actually
Pegasus.
A: So, NSC, National
Security Council, operates the Pegasus group, is that what you're saying?
T: That's what I'm saying.
A: Is everybody that belongs
to the Pegasus group part of the NSC?
T: No, simply because
members of the Pegasus group also come from MI-6, Mossad, and other
intelligence agencies, and we answer - our orders will come from NSC leaders,
who are on the U.S. side, if a U.S. intelligence agent is involved in a
neutralization, or in a mission.
However, those missions can
be asked for - Maggie Thatcher could say, "I want this done, and I want it
done now," and, even though she's not an active politician, you can bet
your bottom dollar it would be done.
A: Even though she's no
longer in power, huh?
T: Well, she's in power.
(LAUGHTER)
A: Well, she's in power, but
not by title.
T: That's right.
A: Yes.
T: She's in power by virtue
of a group of international financiers and international politicians that carry
most of the power in the world today.
A: And now, this National
Security Council, NSC, this has always been interesting to me. Say, if - now,
let's not - you know, let's not say that the CIA does not - has not been
involved in assassinations. You and I know they have, for years. What if, say,
the president of the United States wants to overthrow a particular government,
which they've done, in the past - I'd hate to count the number of governments
they've overthrown - would that come from the president or the vice president
down through National Security Council, from there on out to the CIA and the
Pegasus group?
T: It probably, in some sort
of a relevance there, would be.
Normally, it's done directly
to the OSG's. "This is what we want to do." There are three existing
OSG's. One handles arms, one handles terrorists, and one handles
neutralizations.
A: And what is
"OSG"?
T: "Operating
subgroup," "operational subgroup."
A: And are they part of
Pegasus?
T: They are Pegasus.
A: OK. So the Pegasus, those
are the same thing as operational subgroup, huh?
T: That's right.
A: OK. How many members are
there in Pegasus?
T: Operational Subgroup Two,
we had about 80 operatives.
A: And is that - now, is
that - there are certainly more in the Pegasus group than 80 operatives, aren't
there? Or is that it? Are they an elite group like that?
T: Now, you have to
understand, operatives are full-time people. Now, an operative sets up their
own intelligence network.
Myself as an operative, I
could have people that I could contract to do any number of things. So, you
know, active operatives, that's a lot of active operatives in the field.
The Mossad has about 25 active
Kochsas (sp?) in the field at one time.
A: OK.
So - so we're looking at 80
operatives, you all - each sets up his own intelligence group. Who supervises
what those 80 operatives do? In other words, can - oops, back, time for music
again, folks.
(BREAK)
A: About 25-year veteran
CIA, Chip, you're one of 80 operatives. You set up your own intelligence group.
Who supervises what you do, and your group, the people that are under you?
T: We have a unit commander.
That unit commander is in charge of the OSG. I supervise my people. They are
independent networks, and we compartmentalize them, so one doesn't know who the
other is.
If we need specialists, if
we need an archer team - that's the assassination teams - for something, we
will task for an archer team, and those will be assigned.
I probably only flew, out of
18 archer missions, as the pilot, I only flew the same guy maybe three times.
A: What is an archer
mission?
T: Archer mission-our
archers are team-assassination-teams.
A: OK.
T: They're the men that go
in and take care of the business.
(CROSS-TALK)
T: My job, primarily, as a
special-ops - my forte, I can fly anything into any area, and never be caught.
They'd never know I was there.
A: How can you fly a big
airplane into a country and never get caught? And where would you land it when
you get in there?
T: Not necessarily a big
airplane. It could be something small. It could be, you know, there are many
different ways to do what needs to be done. The mission would come down, and
then I would decide what type of aircraft we would use for the mission.
A: Oh, I see. You were in a
small airplane. Can you get in and out, avoid radar, and land - you'd have to
know ahead of time where to land, though, wouldn't you?
T: Yes. That all has to be
planned. That's why rotary-wing is ideal, except the - the rotary-wing mission
is restricted in - restricted by fuel-loads.
A: OK, OK.
We've overthrown
governments, through the CIA, for years now, and who makes the decision as to
whether or not a certain government will be overthrown? And how many countries
have we been involved in in that regard?
T: I know that we
neutralized Nicaragua, in 1989, and the way we finally did that wasn't through
the Contra effort. The way we did it was, we intimidated and coerced President
Daniel Ortega to the point that he agreed to have elections. We were tasked to
go in. We tried every route that we could, through Contra efforts, through
negotiations through our embassies, to get Mr. Ortega to have elections, and
then finally Vice President Bush said, "OK, boys," and he was the
ultimate man at the time, in 1989, "I want him neutralized." So we
went in, and the intimidation was used on Ortega. We went in, we told him what
date we would assassinate his second cousin, who was a very good friend of his.
We went in, we told him to put as many armies around that man that he wanted,
but that man was going to die. That man died on that date. Two weeks later, the
president of Nicaragua announced that there would be free elections.
A: Ah, and I guess I better
not ask you how you did it, then.
(LAUGHTER)
So we'll let that one slide.
How tragic, though!
How many times has this
happened around the world?
T: 18 that I'm aware of.
A: Involving national
leaders of other countries?
T: Yes.
A: How many governments have
we overthrown?
T: Overthrown or have
control of?
A: Have control of.
(LAUGHTER)
Well, it's the same
difference, isn't it?
T: No, no, not completely.
You know, we give them a
little levity.
A: Not much.
T: No, not much.
I'd say about 15 that I'm
aware of.
A: 15 countries where we
have control of, and in those 15 countries how many instances, and how many
countries were involved in international trafficking of drugs in one phase or
another, in which our leaders, in this country, profited from it?
T: Drugs or arms, all of
them. That was (CROSS-TALK)
A: That - that's the main
reason for doing it, then?
T: That's correct.
A: So we go in, neutralize,
control 15 countries that you know of, in order to gain money and profits
through drugs and arms?
Does democracy matter? Does
what -- the freedom for these people matter at all, as far as CIA's concerned?
T: Not to the elite.
A: Not to the elite.
How about you fellas in the
ranks?
T: Well, we just have a job
to do, you know - I would do my job as long as it didn't involve U.S.
personnel, I would do my job. I had no problem with providing neutralization
contracts on anyone, outside of the U.S.
A: OK, Chip, that's fine,
except there is going to come a day - and there probably already has come a day
- and you and I both know it's already happened - when you've had to neutralize
an American citizen, on many occasions, right?
T: Not me, but it has been
done.
A: Exactly. That's what I'm
saying.
Not you, but there have been
others who have done this.
T: And, Ted, you know, it
doesn't matter. Someone will always be out there to do it, because they pay a
lot of money to do it. We were paid 25 to 50 thousand dollars per mission.
A: OK.
So, you're an operative,
then, you're not a CIA agent, or an official, quote, "on the rolls"
agent?
T: As an agent, yes.
A: OK.
You would say you got a
bonus out of this?
T: You bet!
(BREAK)
A: We have 15 countries that
we've, quote, "neutralized," that you're aware of, primarily for the
purpose of arms and drugs. Do you mean to tell me that we have 14 other
Iran-Contras?
T: Probably more than that.
We were pretty compartmentalized in all of our operations, and let me qualify
something I said just a minute ago. As a member of OSG, we didn't report any
longer to our originating agency. In other words, if I was on an OSG mission, I
wouldn't direct-I wouldn't report directly to the CIA any longer. I would
report only to my OSG commander.
There was occasions where,
out of OSG, we were tasked to - like, on one occasion, I was tasked to Defense
Intelligence Agency, to go interview a person in Honduras by the name of Ellis
Mackenzie (sp?). Some of you may know that name out there. I asked Ellis - this
was in 1989 - I asked Mackenzie, who was one of the aka's that Barry Seal used
to use. And when we found that a guy named Ellis Mackenzie was calling in, we
wanted to see who's - what's this, Seal is dead. When we got down there, we
found Ellis Mackenzie was actually one of Seal's employees, and Seal had used
his name when he was dealing with the Colombians.
Mackenzie had - was trying
to implicate a Col. Castro of the Honduran Air Force, who was one of our
people, in some independent drug-running, and we wanted to find out if Castro
was indeed involved in that, so that was one of the purposes of that. But we
were attached to different agencies, and our reports would be masked to that
agency, and truthful to our OSG-2.
A: OK. Are you talking about
- I understand a number of the gentlemen have been assigned officially to the
Department of Energy, and, when they had an assignment, they'd pull them out of
the Department of Energy and send them on their way. Is that what you're
talking about?
T: Absolutely.
Sure.
Or proprietary companies.
You know, I know some who were - there could be people tasked to the board of
elections of a particular state, who knows? You know.
A: So sometimes the state
agencies are involved then?
T: Absolutely.
A: And how about city and
county?
T: City, county, and
private. The good thing about the National Security Decision Directive that
came out in the eighties, signed by President Reagan, was that, under the
special situation group and operational subgroups, we had the opportunity to
utilize civilian assets also. So we would set up civilian proprietary
companies, utilize those companies. I know one company that I had up in upstate
New York, in Watertown, New York, during the construction of Fort Drum, the
10th Mountain Division. We were there to oversee, to investigate, and to look
into these companies, look in the engineers, see if they were doing anything,
see if they were bugging the buildings, you know, all kinds of things.
But we worked through a
proprietary company, and we were supplied - I was supplied with a $250,000
signature line of credit. I could walk into Key Bank, and, on any given day,
take out $250,000 cash. That was set up by Henry Hyde.
A: Henry Hyde, the
congressman from Illinois?
T: That's the man.
A: I've heard his name now
for years, Chip, but I've never gone public with that information, because I
didn't feel like I should, because it was third-hand. I have no direct
knowledge.
Do you have direct knowledge
of this about Henry Hyde?
T: I have direct knowledge.
He set up the accounts for us.
Everything was done through
an attorney out of upstate New York by the name of Whittaker (sp?). He set up
the corporations for the proprietary company.
A: And, folks, Henry Hyde is
the U.S. congressman from, I think, the Chicago area, isn't he?
T: Illinois somewhere, yes.
A: Yes.
And been very prominent in
Washington, D.C., and, if you will follow some of his bills that he's
introduced, you will see that they're New World Order from the beginning to the
end. Of course they've got enough on him that they could send him up to jail
for years if they wanted to, which is one of the techniques they use on a
regular basis. If somebody gets out of line, they set him up, send him off to
jail, then they're discredited, right, Chip?
T: I know that's true.
A: Yes, you know that.
So we're going to get into
that later on, on one of these other shows.
OK. Now, is there anything
else you want to mention about the Pegasus group, before we move on?
T: I don't think so. I think
Pegasus is alive, Pegasus is out there, and people need to be aware that -
beware of the white horse.
A: Well, the trouble is, you
can be aware, but you won't know, because they can come in on you in the middle
of the night and do just about anything to you that they want to.
Of course, they're pretty
discreet, though, aren't they, Chip?
T: Yes. We don't, you know -
when we neutralize, we use, quote, "compound poisons" and so forth
that imitate heart attacks and don't show up.
You know, neutralizations
and assassinations aren't blatant.
Sometimes they are.
Sometimes we'll use a South African to kill the Sweden leader, or something
like that.
A: Yes, and you're talking
about that mistake that they made up in Sweden here several years ago.
T: Right.
A: Well, do you want to go
into that now, as long as we're?
T: No, I don't think so.
(LAUGHTER)
A: Well, I understand there
are certain things that you don't want to discuss, and I - we won't discuss
them.
OK. Let's go back to your
training now. How did they recruit you? Where did they pick you out of, a
special class of special forces, or what?
T: I had - many times -
well, in 1971 I was on a classified mission in Cambodia. I was a new recruit.
I'd been in the wrong place at the right time. I'd been through special-forces
training. As an Air Force Combat Controller, we were sent through several
TDY's, through Bragg and Benning, and received quite a bit of training,
including NBC training, E&E (sp?) training, POW training.
As an ex-prisoner of war, in
Cam-in Vietnam, I was recovering in Clark Air Force Base, Philippines, and the
person who had briefed the mission, along with Gen. Haig, in 1971 - Haig had
come over from Washington, Mr. Peepers had come over from Washington in another
CIA aspect?
A: Peepers being Bill Colby.
T: Bill Colby.
And when the mission was
over and there were two survivors, the two survivors, from what I understand,
also Chuck, the other survivor, was - we were recruited then into the CIA.
A: And what is that - who
approached you, not Haig or Colby, surely?
T: Colby debriefed me.
A: Colby himself, the head
of the CIA?
He wasn't station chief
then??
T: He was station chief over
in Saigon at the time?
A: Right.
T: (CROSS-TALK) the Phoenix
program.
And I worked for Colby. He
op-conned all of my - was under operational control of all of my military
assignments, so I was sent back to TDY over to him, working - as a matter of
fact, I still have one set of orders that sent me TDY in support as a
communications specialist to Air America.
I did a lot of work, jumped
in a lot of zones, trying to move downed aircraft, downed Air America pilots,
downed military pilots who were where we weren't, into safe zones to have them
picked up.
A: Well, now, back in those
days Colby was the one who initiated the - I don't know what the code-word
would be, it's the program to go in behind the enemy lines and assassinate the
civilian leaders, right? Isn't he the one?
T: No, Colby took over the -
that was the Phoenix program.
A: Yes?
T: Colby took that over from
a previous - from someone else who had set that up.
You know, the problem with
the Phoenix program?
(CROSS-TALK)
A: It's time for a quick
break. Be right?
(BREAK)
A: Operation, or Phoenix
program, Chip.
T: Do you know, the biggest
problem of - the Phoenix program was designed to alleviate North Vietnamese and
Chinese leaders, who were running the show, you know? Get rid of the
commanders, you know, get rid of the communication, get rid of the commanders,
get rid of the problem.
A: Well, it was very
effective, certainly, wasn't it?
T: Absolutely.
But the big problem we had
with that is, many of the people who were running the local intelligence
networks - remember how I explained it just a little while ago as, in OSG, each
operative - or each agent would have their own operatives that would work
around them, we would set up our own network, well, that was the same back
during the Phoenix days, but we used -- utilized a lot of military personnel,
who were special-ops guys, who were special forces, you know, and primarily
officers, and not to say anything about officers, because I were one, many of
the officers didn't have the credentials and the training that was needed to be
able to go out and set up a intelligence network. Many of them were what you
call "ticket-punchers," trying to get their way promoted through the
ranks, and shooting, you know, for the star. So, the intelligence networks that
they set up weren't viable networks. They weren't able to effectively rate the
information that was coming in, so a lot of the information we got was bogus,
and assassinations were performed on that bogus information, so we killed a lot
of innocent civilians.
A: Tragic, very tragic!
Let's go back to your
training. So Colby and Haig recruited you, Colby himself debriefed you. What
kind of training did you receive after - from there on?
Did you go back to
Washington, D.C. for training, or where?
T: Went to Washington to
training, went to - later years, I went over to Glen County (sp?) - Glencoe
(sp?) for training.
A: Well, where's Glen County?
T: Glencoe, Georgia,
southern Georgia.
A: Is that where they have
the big base, training base for a number of agencies, including INS?
T: And FBI, right.
A: And FBI.
I didn't know if the arms
town - it used to be Quantico.
T: Yes, they move a lot of
them over there for advanced training - that's an advanced-training area.
A: OK. So what - tell me a
little bit about your training, details.
T: Well, I know if I leave
my key in, you know - if I lose my key, I can get in.
(LAUGHTER)
A: OK.
(CROSS-TALK)
T: A lot of electronics
training. On my side, assault training. Understanding that my primary mission
later was to get people in and get people out. I trained in Houston Airport,
Houston ATC. I worked with maintenance personnel and radar systems. I trained
on - through the EC3A advanced airborne command post and AWACS program, so that
I understood what they were looking at, what the controllers were looking at,
so that I knew how to get around what they were looking at.
I knew how to fool the system,
and there's a way to fool each system. But you have to train with them, you
have to be there, you have to be up there, understanding what they're looking
at, to know how to fool them.
The fact is, you can't beat
that electronic beam that's coming down to you, but you have to fool that
operator into thinking that you're not what you are.
A: OK. So what you're saying
is, you were going to figure out a way or a technique of bypassing, avoiding
being picked up on radar, is that what you're saying?
T: That's correct.
A: Yes.
And in order to what?, to
drop drugs, or to drop a man out for an assignment or a mission, or what?
T: After - following 1985
and the Iran-Contra thing, they couldn't get any more drugs on board my
aircraft. That was one of the criteria I told my handler, Mr. Colby, at the
time, and OSG. I told Bill, "You know, there's no way in the world you're
ever going to put anything on board my aircraft like that again."
A: Well, now, you discovered
you had drugs on there by accident, because they were labeled medical supplies,
right?
T: That's correct.
A: And tell us about that
incident.
T: Well, on February 26,
1985, I was tasked to fly a couple of guys, a couple of pilots from San Lorenzo
(sp?), Italy - or I mean San Lorenzo, Honduras to El Pariso (sp?), a Contra
camp in Honduras. Those pilots, names were Buzz Sawyer (sp?) and Bill Cooper
(sp?). A year later, the world would hear of those names, along with Gene
Hasenfuss (sp?). They were the pilots that were killed when the Hasenfuss C123
went down, in Nicaragua, which pretty well started the Iran-Contra
investigations.
I flew them into the Contra
camp. While we were there,?
T: (AUDIO GAP) in Nicaragua,
which pretty well started the Iran-Contra investigations.
I flew them into the Contra
camp. While we were there, I was given a cooler marked "vaccines," a
large cooler. We put it on board the aircraft. I took the vaccine cooler to San
Pedro Sula (sp?), as instructed, and I took the two passengers there. They were
to get on a C130, or a 123, I don't recall what they were?
A: A C130 is that huge
airplane, right?
T: It is the four
turboprops, yes?
(CROSS-TALK)
It looks like a baby, the
C130, with only two props.
A: Right.
T: They were to get on board
and go back to El Salvador, El apango (sp?), where they were out of. But the
cooler, as I was unloading it, fell and came open. And the seal broke on it,
so, in looking, I noticed that it contained all kinds of bags of a crystalline
powdery substance that I, you know, being who I was, and understanding what was
probably going on at that point, I tasted it, and it numbed my tongue, and it
was cocaine. And there was over 110 kilos of cocaine in that large cooler.
A: What is worth on the
street?
T: Well, 110 kilos, maybe
about - I don't know..back then..... 15, 20, 25 thousand, a kilo.
A: Yes.
T: And, you know, we flew
over four tons of that stuff while I was there.
So I started marking on the
back of my flight-plan. I told North - I went back to Washington Switch - I
called Washington Switch from Pomeroy (sp?) Air Base, and I told my handler,
Ollie North, I told him - I said, you know, "What the hell's going on
here?" And he said, "These are fruits of war." It was, "the
Contras got it from the Sandinistas, who are funding their war-effort by selling
drugs. And that cooler is bound for the world courts as evidence against these
people."
Well, then I talked to Major
Rodriguez, who was Felix Rodriguez, my handler, a local in Honduras, and he
said the same thing.
A: We're going to be right
back. Hold your thoughts. We'll be right back, with veteran - rather, with
Chip.
(BREAK)
Chip, we have a caller on
the line. We want to know if you ever flew any black helicopters.
T: Ha!
Task Force 160, yes.
A: You did?
T: Absolutely.
A: And when, where?
T: Matter of fact, there is
a picture of me standing in front of one of the black helicopters on the beach
of Grenada. On the beachhead we flew, Task Force 160 flew in. We didn't - those
helicopters weren't in Army inventory, the MD-500 Defenders. We had no markings
on them. Sure.
A: Yes.
What would your mission be
on a black helicopter?
T: Oh, depending on what you
were...we were special ops. We were supporting FBI antiterrorist teams. We were
supporting all kinds of antiterrorist teams then. You know, what we did in the
United States is, our night-flights in black helicopters were practising
night-vision goggle flight-techniques. If you don't, if you're not used to
flying at tree-top level with night-vision goggles on, the goggles have no
depth, you have no depth-perception with them. So you have to practise
extensively, log hours and hours to be able to fly safely and effectively.
A: How would these - how
many of these black helicopters do we have in the United States?
T: Oh, it's hard to say how
big the 160th is now, but I think they're in three different locations. I'd say
probably about 150.
A: And what are the
locations?
T: I don't want to give that
out.
A: OK.
T: It used to be Fort
Campbell, Kentucky.
A: OK.
I want to follow with some
questions that, you know, if you don't want to answer, I don't have any problem
with you saying you can't answer.
T: There are certain things
that I still can't answer, you know.
A: Yes, I understand.
You know, I've pinned you
down pretty good this first hour anyway, so?
(LAUGHTER)
T: And I'd like to say, Ted,
that those - that first flight on February 26th, where we found the cocaine,?
A: Right.
T: ? I started logging all
that information on the back of the flight-plans and have since been able to
publish those flight-plans in the "Tatum Chronicles."
A: And the "Tatum
Chronicles" are available where, how?
T: At 1-800-201-7892. That's
800-201-7892, extension 58. We sent a copy to Ms. Reno, and she still says
today that there is no evidence out there showing that there was ever any
involvement.
(LAUGHTER)
A: Oh yes, uh huh.
T: I think that's a standard
statement by her. I think she made that same statement today about some
political campaign contributions.
A: Oh yes, yes, uh huh.
Absolutely.
Well, we know how that goes.
And you were - we started -
we just have a couple of more minutes, Chip, but we started talking about Ollie
North and Rodriguez - is that his name?
T: Felix Rodriguez, that's
correct.
A: Yes.
And those were your local
handlers, and they said that those were for the international court, did you
say?
T: That's what they said,
and?
A: (GARBLED WORDS)
T: I flew over four tons of
that stuff, and I'd like to see the warehouse for the courts that that stuff's
sitting in today.
A: Well, what does that
mean, though, for the international court?
T: For the world courts. I
think that they were going to file charges against the Ortega-led government.
According to them, that's what they were going to do.
However, my many missions
into Contra camps, I found that the Contras were indeed manufacturing the
cocaine themselves, under the direction of a man brought up from Colombia by
North, and his name was - his name was Novarro (sp?). He flew as a lieutenant
colonel, but his real name was Ramon Novarro, and he would be assassinated just
prior to the Noriega trial.
A: Well, if somebody - if
anybody knows too much about any one item, they do a nice job of assassinating
him or they kill him - they die of a heart attack, or they're Arkancided, otherwise
known as suicided, or they die in a plane crash.
T; That's right.
A: Yes.
And so, let's go back to
talk about Ollie North and the rest of them in this Iran - you're talking about
Iran-Contra.
T: That's what I'm talking
about, Iran-Contra. I think Mr. Meese is the one who came up with that name?
(CROSS-TALK)
A: OK (AUDIO-GAP)
? for the purpose of drugs
and/or arms, and we'll talk some more about that in this hour.
We talked to Chip about his
training, 1971 - he was in a mission to Cambodia, he was recruited by Colby
himself, Colby debriefed him, and we talked a little bit about, in the first
hour, the Phoenix program. This is a program that was the CIA folks go behind
the lines and assassinate civilian leaders, and we talked a little bit about how
in many instances they were innocent individuals. We discussed his training in
Washington, D.C. and Georgia, and the task, his task of - he flew two pilots
into Central America on one occasion, and these were - Se-was it Seia (sp?),
Chip?
T: Pardon me?
A: Who were the two pilots,
Cooper and who else?
T: Sawyer.
A: Sawyer, yes.
T: I got?
A: Anyway, I just wanted to
give you a wrapup - we had even left - the question was asked, at the end of
the last hour, if Chip had ever flown black helicopters. He said,
"Yes," he has flown black helicopters, and they do exist.
Were these helicopters
Russian helicopters?
T: No, they were - we had
MD-500 Defenders, and we had Blackhawks. Then there were also Apaches available
to the - you know, so?
(CROSS-TALK)
A: There was no writing on
them, is that what you're saying?
T: No.
A: Isn't there a regulation
that you have to have writing on the airplanes?
T: Oh, there's writing on
it. You know, it's black paint, and so we've stenciled "U.S. Army" in
black on it.
(LAUGHTER)
A: So it was painted black,
and you put black lettering on it, then? Is that it?
T: That's correct.
A: Well, so they didn't
disobey any regulations then. I'm surprised they even bothered to waste the
paint.
T: For every rule, for every
law, there's a way around it.
A: Yes.
CALLER (?): How do you know
where you're saying - I mean no disrespect, but how do you know what he's
saying is true? And, you know, because I think one of the number-one priorities
of this other - you know, this group, conspirators or whatever, would be to
eliminate him, you know?
A: Well, he's got an answer
for that, but, before he answers it, I'd like to point out this
"Pegasus" article that I mentioned. Did you hear the first hour of
the show?
CALLER: I heard part of it,
not all of it.
A: OK. This
"Pegasus" article, April and May 1997, is well-documented at the
back, and also he has his flight-plans, and he has appropriate notations and
appropriate documentation. Do you want to give us some more details on that,
Chip?
T: It took about a year for
the investigative reporters who started looking into this and their legal
departments to be satisfied with my credentials.
A: You're talking about the
article in "Nexus"?
T: That's correct. And not
only there. I just went through a federal trial, and in the classified
information procedures hearing there was no doubt, there was no - there's no
way that my credentials could be - that the government could deny them, because
they're factual. I was for 25 years with them. Can't be denied. The reason that
I'm not - that I'm in pretty safe ground, Pete, is simply because I've been
around long enough to know that you need to keep an ace in the hole. I have
that ace in the hole. I've promised the people in very high places that that
ace in the hole will keep them protected as long as I'm protected.
A: And, by the way, Pete,
the information that he furnished - has furnished to me cross-checks with other
individuals who have been involved in these same type activities and with whom
I am personally involved, not as an agent or anything, but in the form of
opinion, information from them.
So Chip has been checked
from A to Z, and up and down, all directions, and there's no question about
this man's credibility.
PETE: OK.
One other quick question.
What does your guest think of, you know, the current administration and the
Chinese Communist scandals, you know, fund-raising and so forth?
A: Well, I was - I had?
(CROSS-TALK)
PETE: I'm probably going to
hang up here, and I'll just listen then.
A: Thank you, Pete.
(PETE HANGS UP)
T: As a prisoner of war in
Cambodia,?
(DIAL-TONE)
A: We have a problem.
OK. They've cut it off. Go
ahead.
T: As a prisoner of war in
Cambodia, some of the teams that were assigned to interrogate us included Chinese
officers. I watched in horror, as a 19-year-old boy, as a Chinese major skinned
our captain alive and crucified him because he found a St. Christopher's cross
on his neck. And that's where knives were held to our heads requiring us to
watch this. I watched our platoon-leader suffer over days and die.
A: Tortured?
T: Tortured by a Chinese
officer.
My feeling about any
administration that would go into contracts with the Chinese - do I need to say
it?
A: You were also tortured by
Chinese officers.
T: Yes, I was.
A: And do you want to tell
us about that?
T: Oh, we -- I was beaten.
When the captain was killed and skinned alive, I had - in one of our
escape-attempts, I had hurt the Chinese officer - so, in my escape-attempt,
when we were recaptured, my nose was broken during one of the beatings, and the
medical officer took the skin of our dead captain and stuffed it up my nose,
and he told me that, as I breathed, I would taste the smell of death.
A: You know, skinning alive
as a practice is also used by the satanists, the satanic movement in this
country and around the world, I guess. I don't want to go into details.
But do they - in the ones
I've heard about, they start at the toe and the foot. Is that right?
T: That's right, yes, and
any of the appendages.
A: Yes. And then they move
on up.
T: Yes.
A: A tragic, horrible death,
terrible things.
T: Suffered by one of
America's heroes.
A: Beg your pardon?
T: Suffered by one of
America's true heroes, that captain, special forces officer.
A: Yes.
And we have many heroes out
there, Chip.
That's what disturbs me
about the CIA drug operation and the killing of innocent people, assassinations
by the CIA. And we have people like Henry Hyde of Chicago, a congressman from
Chicago, keeping a record of the black ops by this agency, and we have people
in Washington, D.C. giving orders out to do this and do that, that are not in
our best interests, or the best interests of our country, and we have this
phony, Bill Clinton, talking about - worried about tobacco, our youth smoking
tobacco, and he?
(BREAK)
A: I was on a roll, Chip,
and the music came around, and what I was saying was: if Bill Clinton is making
a big issue out of our youth smoking cigarettes - and it is a problem, I'll
have to agree to that - but at the same time he sanctions and allows drugs to
be brought in by the tonload into this country today, and that could be stopped
overnight if he took certain precautions, but there are too many politicians
involved. Too many of them have been compromised through drugs and sex. And
there's too many bureaucrats involved now.
There's no question in my
mind that we have been infiltrated, this country, at all levels of the
government, big-time. How do you feel about that, Chip?
T: I think you're dead on,
Ted.
A: Yes?
T: I have no doubt that
you're dead on on that.
A: Oh, I know I am.
Chip, I was going to get
into another area. Let's talk about the - in the first hour, we talked about
Henry Hyde and how he keeps track of black ops by the CIA and the drugs and so
forth. Tell us about Iran-Contra. You were obviously involved in it, and do you
have information about Ollie North, and do you have information about other
leading figures in this country? How did you - when did you first realize what
was going on? When you dropped that medical box and it split open and there was
cocaine in it?
T: Well, in that arena, yes.
That's when I first knew - I had no doubt what was going on.
When I landed and made my
call back to Washington Switch, and told Mr. North what was going on, and his
response was that these are the fruits of war, they're going to world courts,
you know, we're going to get the Sandinistas for doing this, for shipping drugs
into our country, well, you know, that's the apple-pie response, you know,
that, when it comes right down to it, Mr. North doesn't know the meaning of
"semper fidelis."
Let me read what - one of
the items that I wrote on the back of one of the flight-plans when I landed,
simply because I knew that we needed to start documenting what was going on,
for the protection of my flight-crews. These men were military men. They
weren't agency. They weren't intelligence assets of any sort. They were
innocent bystanders, like you have talked about, that we were utilizing.
We needed the cover of
medevac to fly the missions under humanitarian support?
A: Explain medevac.
T: Medical evacuation is -
is just that, medical evacuation of wounded and supplies by - via helicopters.
We flew OD (sp?) green helicopters with big red crosses on them, so that, under
the Geneva Convention, we wouldn't be fired upon, and we were humanitarian
aircraft. We weren't to supply any weapons. We weren't to supply anything other
than humanitarian support in medevac aircraft.
A: Well, now, you had
markings on those planes, and also on the black helicopters flown in the past.
It was painted - the helicopters are black, and the paintings on the helicopter
was "U.S. Army," also in black, so they were able to comply with all
the regulations that way.
T: You bet! That's correct.
With the medevac aircraft, it was an actual medevac group that received the
tasking to go in there. We knew ahead of time who would be tasked to go TDY in
there, and I was sent to that unit PCS, permanent change of station, to
infiltrate that unit, so that I could be the command pilot on that mission.
A: OK.
T: When I landed, I made
notes, and it - let me?
A: Where did you land, Chip?
T: Pardon me?
A: Where did you land?
T: Back at Palmerol (sp?)
Air Base. That's in Honduras. That's where - that was the air force academy of
the Hondurans, and that's where we were basing out of.
On 9th of April, we landed,
and this was what was written: "We flew into a small village 40 kilometers
east-northeast of Acatal (sp?) in Nicaragua. Rodriguez was there with a Contra
leader, Enrique Bermudez, when we arrived. We walked through the camp, which
was still being cleared and organized. Four fuel-pods, with their tops cut off,
were sitting outside a large military tent. Several tactical fuel balls were located
next to the pods. Rodriguez told the air-crew that this was a Sandinista base
that was captured. I noted that all the equipment, the GP large tents, the fuel
pilots, and the tactical fuel balls were U.S.-made. And inside the tent were
several women packaging cocaine. When we left, we carried four 110-quart
flight-coolers marked 'medical supplies' to San Lorenzo (sp?), Honduras,
dropped them off to a civilian C-123, and returned to base."
A: This is written on your
flight-plan?
T: In 1985.
A: On the back of your
flight-plan?
T: On the back of the
flight-plan.
A: And how many such reports
do you have?
T: There's 110 pages of
this.
A: OK. So that's your
documentation?
T: That - that's pretty darn
good documentation.
A: That's the best.
And what have you done with
this documentation?
T: I've published it.
(CROSS-TALK)
A: ? and gave it to Janet
Reno?
T: Janet Reno has a copy of
it. As a matter of fact, I even sent it to a man named Lee Reddick (sp?), who's
in charge of the public integrity section of the Department of Justice, and Mr.
Reddick's response was unbelievable. He said, "I?" - let me read his
response when he received this.
A: You've got his response
there?
(BREAK)
A: Chip, on this - we were
talking about Ollie North. Tell us more about Ollie North.
Now, you had direct contact
with him, didn't you?
T: Old Blood and Guts
himself, you bet. That's what he likes to refer to himself as.
A: Well, is he really a
blood-and-guts man, or is that all a front?
T: I think that's quite a
bit a front. I think he was a warrior. He was placed in a position that greed
got the best of him. However, Vietnam days, he was a warrior. Those are gone,
and he can never relive those days, as much as he would like to.
I know that on one occasion,
in one of the camps - let me read you what my medic wrote. This is on 18th of
March. He said, "Arrived at San Lorenzo (sp?). Arrival had not been
coordinated with ground personnel. At the helipad, the emergency vehicles were
not waiting. There was no answer on medevac frequencies 4510 or on their 4910.
Confusion on ground, causing ground time 15 minutes. Medics' duties were
compounded when Mr. North fainted."
Our medic was working on the
chest of a particular Contra soldier. We had two wounded Contra soldiers in the
camp that we went into in El Paraiso (sp?), both because of artillery fire
during the night, many wounded children. When we pulled it - when we saw that
there was a piece of wood, a sliver, in the chest of this man, we tore his
clothing open. Mr. North wanted to leave. He had other villages to get to. But
we were the primary medevac for three countries. Also, I had three jobs. We
worked for the CIA out of the embassy, I worked for Pegasus group, and I worked
for the Army, as a medevac pilot. So I was juggling quite a bit.
When North came over to see
what the delay was, and he asked Specialist Macdonald (sp?), my medic,
Macdonald looked up at him kind of disgusted and was trying to explain to him
that he had to save...to work on this man, to save his life. Then we tore the
clothing open, the chest-wound was wide, the chest-cavity was wide open in
there, and Macdonald grabbed in to pull the wood out that was laying on top of
the heart area, and North's knees buckled and fell over.
A: Well, how was he involved
in the Iran-Contra situation, as far as the money was concerned, and the
organization of it?
T: Well, North is the person
who actually - you know, you hear a lot about the North camps in Honduras for
the Contras. The North camps were named the "North camps" not because
they were necessarily in the northern part of the country, but because North
set them up. North was in charge of setting those camps up. Enrique Bermudez
was in charge of protecting those camps. And Ramon Novarro was in charge of the
cocaine operations in those camps. It was a - you know, the Three Musketeers
there. They were producing, out of each camp, about - and there were five of
them that were producing cocaine - about 500 kilos a week. It wasn't a large
operation, but it was large enough that the paste that was sent to them from
Ramon Novarro's contacts in the Medellin cartel wasn't supplying paste fast
enough, so they were actually flying bales of leaves up from Peru.
A: So, Ollie North set these
five camps up, 500 kilos per week. How many years were they in service?
T: They were in service when
I got there, and they were setting up new ones too. 159th Aviation Battalion
out of Fort Campbell, Kentucky, superchinooks (sp?) were flying in the
fuel-pods and equipment, dropping them in, dropping bladders of acetone and
jet-fuel into the area.
A: Well, where was North
physically located at this time, Washington, D.C., or down there in Central,
South America?
T: He was in Washington,
D.C., but he did make several trips into South America, as did Vice President
Bush, which wasn't brought out at the time. Mr. Bush was there on April 12th,
but no one heard that.
A: Down at these camps?
T: That's correct.
A: April 12th of what year?
T: 1985.
A: And he was vice president
then, wasn't he?
T: That's correct.
A: And so, did - how did the
money flow on - the organization-structure of the drugs, the money, et cetera?
Do you have any idea on that?
T: I was a pilot down there.
I don't know how the money flowed. I know many of the drugs went to either
Ilapongo(sp?) Air Base in El Salvador, or they went up to Panama. I did have
the occasion to fly several members to El Ocatal (sp?) to a meeting of this
cartel - I call it the "Olympic Cartel" because of the proportions of
what they were doing. Several of the members that I flew to this meeting in El
Ocatal - here are the people who were there: it was General Noriega, Mike
Harari, who was a retired Mossad agent assigned to Gen. Noriega, Felix
Rodriguez, Joe Fernandez, who was the CIA station-chief in Costa Rica, Gen.
Gustavo Alvarez (sp?), who was the U.S. - or the Honduran Army chief of staff,
and a guy named William Barr, who represented the assets of this enterprise.
A: Now, wait a moment.
William Barr used to be attorney general of the United States.
T: He later became, under
his boss George Bush, the attorney general of the United States, that's
correct.
A: That's right. He replaced
Thornburgh, wasn't it?
T: Yes, I believe so.
A: Well, isn't that
interesting?
Well, you know, let me tell
you about William Barr, very briefly, because I don't want to get into my
story, because I've told it before on the air. But I was able to - with John
DeCamp (sp?), we'd infiltrated an organized child-kidnapping ring in the
Midwest, and I personally sent a letter to William Barr when he was attorney
general and told him about that ring. I personally sent a letter to the FBI and
told them about this ring. I said, "Don't come to me and ask me questions
about it, because it's third-hand. Come to me, and I'll give you my sources and
the names of people who can - could document this information," and
William Barr wrote back and said my sources are not credible - he didn't know
who my sources were. And I was totally ignored not only by Mr. William Barr,
but also by the FBI, and that's another one of my bones that I have to pick
with the FBI.
So go on with your story. So
we have Vice President Bush, we have Ollie North, we have William Barr involved
in the drug-operation. It's that simple, isn't it?
T: We have Amir Amir (sp?),
Mossad, Mike Harari, Mossad.
A: Yes, we have the Mossad
agents also. Well, Mossad and CIA are basically one and the same, aren't they?
T: They're not one and the -
when you think (CROSS-TALK)
A: ? I'm exagerating, Chip.
T: When you think of the OSG
operating room, yes, we're an international - our intelligence is now an
international intelligence society. It's not just a U.S. intelligence society.
A: You're talking about OSG,
operations subgroup, which is the same thing as Pegasus.
T: That's correct.
A: And so, you know, let's
go back just a minute. I want to - I meant to ask you this when we were talking
about training on the first hour. When you went through your training-sessions,
did you have FBI agents there with you?
T: Oh, yes. The FBI - we
went to normal training in - well, this was in Glencoe. Sure. I also had the
opportunity to travel to Israel and do some training in Israel. So?
A: Well, so we're talking
about - how about DEA and ATF? Were they involved in some of this training with
you?
T: Not in the training, no.
A: Yes.
T: We did use - we did
support the ATF and DEA in a couple of missions that I flew, but that was it.
A: Did they train you as a
professional assassin?
T: Yes.
A: OK, we won't go into
details on that.
OK. Now, we're talking about
Ollie North and Bush, but you do not know how the money-flow. Caller that wants
to know anything about Colby's death.
T: No, I was in prison at
the time of Colby's death. I did - I had written him a letter about three weeks
prior to his death, and never received a response from him.
A: Do you - are you aware of
the details of his death?
T: I'm aware that he died in
a canoeing accident. I'm aware that the home - the door of his home was left
open and his computer was accessed.
You known, I've flown Bill
Colby on several other occasions, in - under the OSG. One thing Colby was
always meticulous about was the requirement to wear our water-wings whenever we
were on overwater flights in rotary-wing air-single-engine rotary-wing aircraft.
He was meticulous about us wearing those safety-vests, almost to the point that
you would think that he - you know, he had some fear of water, and, from what I
understand from his wife, he always wore his life-vest when he went out
canoeing. But he didn't have it on then, did he?
A: No, he did not, and
furthermore not only was the computer left on, and the door was open, but there
was a partial meal on the table, and, when Colby went out on his canoe, in the
boat, he always put his flag up, his mariner's flag up. The flag was not up,
and furthermore he was very meticulous about not going out in his boat when
there was a high wind, and there was rough - in rough waters, and there were
rough waters that particular night.
And I - you know, he's a
good friend, or was a good friend of John DeCamp (sp?). John DeCamp is a good
friend of mine. And I don't know how John feels, but I'm very comfortable
saying that I think that he was murdered, assassinated.
T: I believe he was
neutralized.
A: Neutralized. You use the
word "neutralized," I use the word "murder." They're both
the same, when it comes to CIA operations.
You know, he was -I don't
know if I can say this for a fact, but I'd say I've been told, after - up to 25
years after you've served in the CIA, you cannot write a book without approval
of the CIA, without them reviewing it, editing it, and he was three months away
from that period, and he was writing a book. Is that true, Chip?
T: That's true from the best
of my knowledge, and I had even asked him if he would write the foreword to my
book, that I was getting ready to produce, or getting ready to publish.
I was able to bypass that,
in a way, on getting the approval from them, simply because I used my book in
my federal trial, and a federal judge can overrule any classification.
A: We're going to go?
(BREAK)
A: Chip, we were talking
about your book. Are you going to expose all in your book, or are there certain
things you have to hold back on?
T: Well, the "Tatum
Chronicles" is just the flight-plans and the documents which expose and
are sufficient to receive an indictment on several people. The - Operation Red
Rock, which was our mission in Southeast Asia, I just finished that, as a
matter of fact, about three days ago. I had written it in prison, and had just
finished - it just came back from the typists.
A: And this is - I mean, if
you're going to publish everything, and you - do you still have the advantage
of having an insurance policy, so to speak, or??
T: I'm not going to publish
everything.
(LAUGHTER)
A: OK. Then, what's to keep
them from doing a 10-7 job on you? 10-7 is lingo for a law enforcement out of
service.
T; Well, while I was in
Jessup Federal Prison, I was in - I was approached by a person from the NSC and
someone from the Federal Bureau of Prisons, wanting to know what I had - if I
would relinquish all this information that I had tucked away, simply because it
could do so much harm to certain political figures, if I were to be harmed.
And I said, "Well,
buddies, my advice to you is, keep me safe."
A: OK. In other words,
you're going to hold - you're going to hold some things back then, aren't you?
T: Absolutely.
A: Well, the NSC being
National Security Council, which fits - that is right out of the White House,
folks. We discussed that on the first hour.
Chip, I've done the same
thing, by the way. I have twelve letters that are in a safe deposit box. If
anything happens to me, those twelve letters go to some key people. It gives
the head and the leaders of the satanic movement in this country, and it ties
in to some interesting individuals, and we have to do that in order to stay
alive.
Come right back, folks?
(BREAK)
A: Colin Powell signed your
orders?
T: As far as being able to
move on the military side, someone had to be placed there for us to move in and
out of the military, and that's the man who signed the orders.
A: "Move in and out of
the military," what does that mean, at military camps?
A: (AUDIO GAP) by airplanes
for the military, or what?
T: Sure.
We had to be attached back
into the active service. We had to move out of active service.
A: Oh, I see. In other
words, this week, you're a civilian. Next week, you're in the military.
T: That's correct.
A: And where was Colin
Powell at the time he signed these orders?
T: Washington, D.C.
A: And what knowledge did he
have of the operations you were involved in?
T: I have no idea. I just
know that he was the man who reported to the Joint Chiefs as far as
intelligence, and that's the man that all intelligence efforts went through.
A: Well, now, how about
intelligence on drug operations?
T: That's very possible.
You know, I don't think -
and let me qualify that - the United States military had no direct knowledge of
what was going on there.