Transcript of 12 hours of radio interview of Chip Tatum on Intelligence Report. Ted Gunderson, a retired FBI chief, is the interviewer. Commercials and telephone calls into the program have been edited out if not substantive.

This transcript was serialized and posted to Freerepublic.com by a Washington lawyer who uses the name “areistides.”

A CIA AGENT TALKS: Cocaine, Assassinations, NWO, Bush, Clinton (Part One)

Crime/Corruption News Keywords: CHIP TATUM CIA ASSASSINATIONS COLBY BUSH FBI MOSSAD NIH

Source: Radio Interview of Gene "Chip" Tatum

Published: May (?) 1997 Author: Interview of Chip Tatum by Ted Gunderson

Posted on 11/12/1999 19:06:48 PST by aristeides

This is the first excerpt from an extensive series of radio interviews of Gene "Chip" Tatum by Ted Gunderson on a program entitled Intelligence Report. Ted Gunderson is a 27 year FBI agent who was in charge of the second largest office of the Bureau when he retired. Since retirement, he has investigated several high profile cases and has received frequent recognition for outstanding work.

As to Chip Tatum, here is how an article in The Nexus described him:

"Vietnam Special Forces air combat controller, 25-year CIA deep-cover agent,US Army pilot flying classified missions during the US invasion of Grenada, Iran-Contra pilot flying cocaine shipments labeled as 'medical supplies', a member of the ultra-secret international G-7-run Pegasus hit-team, this is the extraordinary story of a man named Gene "Chip" Tatum, and sensitive, highly secretive, and heretofore largely unknown special forces covert operations in Cambodia, to wandering DIA asset, through to black ops activities in Grenada and Ollie North's Iran-Contra Enterprise, as well as membership in an international hit team, Gene "Chip" Tatum has seen it all, done it all, is now telling it all.”

"A ("announcer"): OK, I - an outstanding guest, not one but two today, and I'll start with Stu Webb (ph). Stu Webb I've known for some time. Number of connections, went to the Iran-Contra, the Silverado Savings & Loan scandal, the Denver airport, and the HUD scandal.

Stu became involved in exposing corruption in America through a marriage, and I'll let him explain that to you later.

And we also have my friend - I've never had the privilege of meeting him in person, but he's got to be a great American. He's a combination of Rambo, Schwarznegger, and John Wayne all wrapped up in one, Gene "Chip" Tatum.

Let me just read from the "Nexus" magazine, which is published, by the way, in England. You cannot even publish something like this in the United States of America. You know the First Amendment, freedom of speech, the legend, for us?

Yes, for us. You change yourself. News-free media, shame on you, you're not furnishing the American people the truth, what has to be said, what has to be told to the public.

Anyway, let me read from this article, "The Nexus," and it's the May and April of 1997. It's out. "Vietnam Special Force air combat controller, 25-year CIA deep-cover agent, U.S. Army pilot flying classified missions during the U.S. invasion of Grenada, Iran-Contra pilot flying cocaine shipments labeled as 'medical supplies,' a member of the ultra-secret International G-7-run Pegasus hit-team, this is the extraordinary story of a man named Gene 'Chip' Tatum, and sensitive, highly secretive, and heretofore largely unknown special-forces covert operations in Cambodia, to wandering CIA asset, through to black ops activities in Grenada and Ollie North's Iran-Contra Enterprise, as well as membership in an international hit team, Gene 'Chip' Tatum has seen it all, done it all, is now telling it all."

And congratulations, Gene, for coming forward. You have a great deal of admiration and respect coming from me, but also from the American people.

And Stu, thanks to you for coming on the show, and for making Gene available.

Let's start off. Gene, are you there?

T: I'm here, Ted.

A: OK.

Gene, it's just absolutely fabulous that you're coming forward. I've known of a number of other operatives, agents, et cetera who have not come forward but would like to come forward because of the consequences that are facing them if they do, and I'm aware that you have been through your trial and tribulation, had some problems, attempts to discredit you, jail, and the whole nine yards, right?

T: That's right, Ted. I just left federal prison April 4th, just a few weeks ago.

A: And tell us about your background. How - where were you raised, and, you know, are you from a rural background, a city-boy, or what?

T: I'm a city-boy from St. Petersburg, Florida, spent my whole life there, and then, when Vietnam came around, I was one of the low-lottery people, and I decided, well, I really don't want to go to Vietnam, so I started shopping around. I went to the Navy recruiter. The Navy recruiter told me, you know, "Well, you know, look at these nice bell-bottom blue jeans," and back in the 70's, as a young, you know, 19-year-old, that was pretty neat to me.

Then the Air Force recruiter told me, "Chip, listen, I want to make you an air traffic controller, so that, even if you do go to Vietnam, you'll be 100 miles away from everything."

I said, "That's for me."

Well, I graduated in the top 10 percent of the class, and they came out with a new position, it's called a combat controller, and that's where you jump in between the enemy and our lines and call in the air-strikes.

A: That's a long ways from being air traffic controller, Chip.

T: Boy, I'll tell you!

(LAUGHTER)

A: Well, yes. Do you think you made the right decision?

T: I do. I wouldn't change those decisions for anything in the world. It' s a life that I've lived. It's a life that I'm proud that I lived, and that I think I've done good for this country, but I think that the country needs some help right now.

A: Well, you're a hero. You're a 100-percent John Wayne-Rambo-Schwarzenegger hero as far as I'm concerned.

I read this article last night, and it's absolutely shocking what you are telling the American people now - you're coming out - how long have you been coming out publicly with this information?

T: Oh, for about a year and a half. When the government decided to prosecute my wife, when they were after me to discredit me, I knew then that things were very wrong. You know, they brought a man in that didn't know her from the man in the moon, and he testified against her that he was a good friend and, you know, it was?

A: It was total lies, huh?

(BREAK)

And we're back. My guest today is Gene Tatum and Stu Webb.

I'm aware, you know, as you are, having been involved in the intelligence community for some time, of what's going on, but I've never seen so much information and so - as compact as this is, in this particular article, and there is so much here, and I'd like to get it out to the American people.

Can you - if I clear my calendar all next week, starting with Tuesday, can you be with me for four or five days?

T: Yes, I believe so.

A: OK. I'm going to clear it this afternoon, and, starting Tuesday - and for you, Gene, we're getting ready to go into a quick break. And when I come back, I'd like to - I'd be interested in finding out how you two got connected. We're going to be together here for four or five days, so we have plenty of time to really tell the story as it should be told. We'll be right back for the last few minutes. Time for a quick break.

(BREAK)

A: We're back. My guest today is Gene Tatum, inside, your CIA deep-cover agent, and Stu Webb, a whistle-blower, super whistle-blower, has been exposing this criminal element, shadow government, within our system for a number of years.

Gene, how did you and Stu ever hook up?

T: You know, I'm not quite sure. I was in prison at the time, and he hooked up through my wife Nancy, and I think probably Stu can tell a little more about that.

A: Yes. Why don't you just give us a little short synopsis on that?

W: Basically, Al Martin (sp?), who I've dealing with since 1991 - he did a few radio-shows back in '95 with me. I was a former shadow-government player, he was Gen. Richard Secord's head accountant, in the Iran-Contra affair. He was doing business in Denver, with Meyer Blinders (sp?), Silverado, and D.C. Milman(sp?), Mizell (sp?), all of them.

He had informed me that Gene was in jail and that Gene was a very important link in the Colorado, that he had done business there back in the 70's, and so it was one of those things that I could not plan, and I took it from there and tried to help him get some exposure.

A: OK. Back to you, Gene.

Gene, in reading this article, "The Pegasus File" --

A: What is the Pegasus operation?

T: At the time, "Pegasus" is a code-name. Actually, "Pegasus" was a code-name given to me by Mr. Colby in 1971.

A: Mr. Colby being ex-director of the CIA.

T: That's correct. He was the CIA station chief for - or the equivalent thereof - we didn't quite have a station chief in Saigon, but he ran the agency in Saigon. He was the one who debriefed me after my captivity in Cambodia. I had a 92-day captivity as a prisoner of war. Following the debriefing, he explained to me that I would be under the operational control throughout the rest of my career of the CIA. I said, "OK."

(LAUGHTER)

A: And what does that mean?

T: What do you say? Well, all of my assignments were controlled by Mr. Colby and the agency.

A: They were right at the top, then?

T: That's correct.

For fear - there was a lot of fear on the part of the White House that what we had done in Vietnam and Cambodia, the attack on the Phnom Penh airport, who - the Cambodians were our allies - the U.S. attacking that could not be accepted in the international community, by other governments.

So there was a lot of fear in the Nixon White House that this would get out. And out of the 13 men that were on Operation Red Rock only two of us survived.

A: Well, what you're saying is, of course, based on everything I've been able to research and learn, we've been killing our allies for years, haven't we?

T: Oh, that's true, absolutely. They align or they die. Those are the only two choices that they have.

A: And sometimes when they align, they still die.

T: That's correct.

A: Yes, well, you know, are you familiar with the order that was given back in the early 80's, where they unilaterally transfered some of these CIA agents over in the various agencies, other intelligence agencies, in order to (CROSS-TALK) control them, and so forth?

T: And that's where I went.

Pegasus is a name that I used because I had to wait five years after my debriefing to talk about anything, and five years was February of this year. That article in "Nexus", they've been working on for over a year, trying to put it together and investigate, so that there wasn't any liability on their part.

So I used the name Pegasus, but I was actually a member of an operational subgroup.

A: And now, wasn't Pegasus established kind of as a secret organization within the CIA - in other words, secret agents within the secret agents to spy on the others?

T: That's correct. Our primary function in Pegasus was to spy on the spies, to make sure that they didn't get out of line.

A: And how would you do this, and who would you report to?

T: We would report directly to the Director of CIA, and that - my involvement with that was directly to the Director, Colby, and following that Director Bush.

A: And do you know, by the way, John DeCamp?

T: I know the name well, yes.

A: Yes. And were you involved with him at all?

T: No, I wasn't.

A: John is a good friend of Bill Colby's. John wrote the book to turn up the cover-up which is available through this program for $15. Anybody that wants it can write to Ted Gunderson, Post Office Box 18000-259, Las Vegas, Nevada 89119, exposes, you know, organized child-kidnapping, and which I feel ties back into the Finders group back in Washington, D.C.

Are you familiar with the Finders group?

T: No, I'm not.

We were very compartmentalized in our positions at Pegasus.

A: OK. So, that's kind of like where I was in the FBI, then.

T: Right.

A: And OK, what would you do, as a spy, on a spy?

T: As a spy, let's say?

A: Hold your thought there, Gene. We'll be right back, folks.

(BREAK)

A: And we're back. And, as my guests, Gene "Chip" Tatum, 25-year CIA deep-cover agent, and Stu Webb, whistle-blower.

And, Gene, back to you. I want to ask you how do spies spy on spies. But before I do that, going back to these unilateral transfers, out of the CIA into various intelligence agencies, how many transfers were there? Do you have any idea?

T: I don't know. I worked, in the particular group I was with - I worked with several FBI intelligence officers, and Defense Intelligence Agency personnel.

A: Well, now, were you transferred into another agency for cover, like a lot of these fellas have been doing into the Department of Energy, and, when they need them for an assignment, they pull them out of there and send them around the world. Do you (CROSS-TALK)

T: I worked for the National Institute of Health for a while, and actually I fell under the National Security Council, NSA.

A: Well, now, when you were over there for the National Institute of Health, what are you doing, looking through the magnifying glasses or what? I mean,?

T: No?

A: What do they do? Do they just - do they send you for research over there?

T: That's right. They just, you know, send the data to us, and answering partially what you're saying now is, part of what I did, in spying on the spies, was, was basically the alignment. Our group was alignment to - aligned those spies to ensure that they followed the dictates of what we needed to do. Others had the job of actually spying on them and collecting data, finding skeletons in the closet. And if they couldn't find that, then we would put them in a position of compromise, so that - and record that position, so that we were able to effectively neutralize them.

And that's what we did out of the NIH, basically.

A: Well, you're talking about blackmail.

T: That's what I'm talking about.

A: Yes.

And how many were in your group? You said your group, you don't know about the other groups.

T: Our group had about 80 officers in it.

A: And were they all CIA?

T: Oh no. No.

As a matter of fact, we had Danish intelligence, Israeli intelligence, and British intelligence with us.

A: And FBI?

T: And FBI, yes.

A: How many U.S. government agents?

FBI, CIA?

T: Primarily U.S. government, probably about 50 or 60.

A: What agencies, besides the FBI and CIA?

T: FBI, CIA, Department of Defense, Defense Intelligence Agency, NSA, the whole gamut.

A: And would all of this group report back to the head of the CIA, like Colby or George Bush?

T: All of us reported back to three different leaders, yes.

A: Yes.

T: Whoever the commander of the unit was.

A: OK. And he was back over at CIA Headquarters, I guess.

T: Yes, or?

A: In the field?

T: Or in the Executive Office Building.

A: OK.

And so, let's say that you, as a spy spying on spies, wanted to find out about Mr. XYZ, CIA, whether or not he was complying with instructions, regulations, et cetera, would that be what you'd do, you'd go check him out, run surveillances on him, or what?

T: That's part of what the groups would do. I wasn't involved in that portion very often - off and on, on occasion, I would be on - the best way to spy on a spy is to get him, give him a more exotic mission to work on, something that he has complete control himself on, to see how he operates, see what he does. And we would send a man along, in the background, to keep an eye on what's going on. Usually it was a set-up, anyhow.

A: Well, now, how did you do that? I mean, what would you be doing? What kind of a mission would you give him?

T: Perhaps an intelligence mission in - well, let me give you one specific example. An intelligence mission in Amsterdam. We sent a man to Amsterdam to collect some data. He was a CIA man, and we needed some information on two of the leaders in Amsterdam. He was given carte blanche on what he was to do, and we approached him with Israeli intelligence personnel to see if he would sell off some information - some of the information that he was gathering, and certainly he did.

A: Oh, so he was a traitor to the country, then?

T: That's what he was.

A: Well, used a pretext of being Mossad, is that what you're saying?

T: That's correct - well, no, we didn't need a pretext, we had them right in our office.

(LAUGHTER)

A: What happened to him?

T: Oh. That particular man wasn't with us any longer.

(LAUGHTER)

A: Well, did he go to jail or is he a whistle-blower or what?

T: Normally, those men would not go to jail. They - we had another place for them to go.

A: Bye-bye, huh?

T: That's right.

A: You're talking about assassinations, killings.

T: That's correct.

A: OK.

And OK, let's go back to some of these other agencies, like, did you have DEA in this group with you?

T: We didn't have DEA with us, and on several occasions we supported DEA and ATF operations. My particular expertise was, I can fly, I can fly a helicopter into a country and out of a country, I can fly an airplane into a country and out of a country with my ATC[air traffic controller] background and knowledge of radar. I know how to go in, and I know how to go out, and no one will ever know we were there.

A: Uh huh.

Now, are you also - were you trained for special forces then?

T: Yes, I was.

A: OK.

Tell us a little more about your training besides that and special forces.

T: Ah, gee! Ummh?

A: Firearms, of course.

T: Firearms, NBC., electronics training - heavy electronics training?

A: In wiretaps and all that sort of thing?

T: That's correct.

A: Yes.

T: Nuclear, biological, and chemical training, how to utilize the weapons properly, maximum utilization of weapons, and so forth.

A: And how about going behind enemy lines, walking into a house at night, and them not even knowing you're there.

T: E&E (sp?) training, sure.

(LAUGHTER)

A: That's happened to me, by the way.

T: Yes.

A: I've noticed - several times I've noticed something disappeared off my desk, and I figured the boys in the business did it.

T: Yes.

A: Would that be normal?

T: The boys are busy, that's correct.

A: Would that be normal for somebody like me?

T: Sure.

(CROSS-TALK)

T: ? FBI agent, as any agent, as any intelligence or law-enforcement agent in the United States, you are one of our targets.

A: Aha! And I'm probably a target right today, aren't I?

T: I would say you probably are, Ted.

A: I've seen every sign of it, yes.

T: Yes.

Our?

A: Is there something you wanted to mention?

W: Yes, I've had visits. I think Gene could tell you who Bill Kelso (sp?) is, William Kelso (sp?). I've also had the same thing, to where they' ve tried from time to time to come in to siphon materials, should we say?

A: Well, I put something - I put a letter on my desk one night, right on top, because I was going to fax it first thing in the morning, and I got up the next morning, and it was gone.

And what I've seen, I've seen other signs too.

On one occasion, I know they put a penny on my bed. Does that - did that mean anything to you, to put a penny on my bed, at the foot of the bed?

T: No, not necessarily. You know, different agents have different calling-cards.

A: That was his calling-card, then?

T: Yes.

A: And do they usually leave little calling-cards behind when they do that?

T: Sure. They're saying with a penny is, your life isn't worth a penny.

A: Oh, is that what it is?

T: That's what it is.

A: Well, it's worth a lot more than that to me, I think.

(LAUGHTER)

And I've got news for 'em. I'm not through either. I haven't done all my whistle-blowing either.

T: Hah!

A: So, would they have - for somebody like me, would they have one guy assigned to me, or would they have a team assigned to me?

T: Depending on the mission and the goals of the mission, you may have a whole team assigned to you, you may have one person, you may have people coming in and out of your life, you know, not necessarily full-time, just, you know, here, let's spend a week with this guy and go after him. There are so many out there that we have to align.

A: OK, we'll be right back, folks.

(BREAK)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This posting begins a set of installments of a set of radio interviews of Gene "Chip" Tatum. The interviews, by Ted Gunderson, took place in May 1997. Like the earlier materials for the interviews of Gordon Novel, "WACO -- A Carefully Planned Event," I am receiving these materials from dawnal.

However, this time dawnal has sent me tapes, and I am transcribing from them. So I can vouch for the presence of the words on tape this time.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Part II

A: We're back, with guest today Gene Tatum, 25-year CIA deep-cover agent, and Stu Webb, whistleblower.

And, Gene, say, if I travel city to city, would they put different fellas on me as I move around, or would they have the same team travel with me?

T: We might put a three-tier team on you, or something like that, sure.

A: What does a "three-tier team" mean?

T: Where you don't have the same faces around you at one time. If you get on a one-way trip from here to - say, you leave Dallas, you're going to Denver, and you're stopping through Chicago or something, we'll have a man with you from Denver to Chicago, and then another one from Chicago on in to?

A: While on the airplane?

T: Right, and then another one will pick you up on the ground in Denver.

A: And then they run a surveillance that way.

T: Sure.

A: Right. Well, I've known of surveillances on the airplane. I was, I mean, suspicious of it, because of certain situations and actions that took place.

Gene, what about your - one of your first assignments, let's say, right after you - you went through special forces, did the CIA recruit you right out of special forces?

T: No?

A: (CROSS-TALK) special forces afterwards?

T: As a combat controller, we were put through Army special forces schools, to include - as a matter of fact, even to include diving-school, but I wasn't recruited until after our captivity, until after Operation Red Rock, and my part in Operation Red Rock was quite by being in the wrong place at the right time.

A: Operation Red Rock, was that the raid on the Cambodian airport?

T: Right, on the main airport in Phnom Penh, that's correct, and I replaced the commo, U.S. Army Special Forces green beret commo person, who had broken his leg on a jump about a week before the mission was to kick off.

A: And you did so well that they brought you in then after that?

T: No, it's not that I did so well, I knew too much.

A: Ah!

And so you either come aboard or you're terminated.

T: That was just about the choice.

A: Yes.

T: You know?

A: They made that clear with you?

T: A 19-year-old kid, I had no doubt, you know, that I could work well with them.

A: Yes.

Up until that there's two factions in the intelligence community now, there's the old-timers that realize - in fact, I sat down with a CIA agent here a year or so ago, and he told me - he says, "You know," he said, "for years I felt I was helping my country and working with my country, solving the problem, and then all of a sudden I woke up, and I realized I was part of a problem," because of all the activity he was involved in and the horrible things that he was forced to do and forced to carry out some of his assignments.

I've been told that there's two factions, there's the old-timers and the young gung-ho type, is that true?

T: I think that's true, and, even in business, it's the people who are on the inner circle, and people who are outside of the inner circle. As a young intelligence-officer, you're just out there and you're gung-ho, charging forward, protecting the American people and the American dream, but, after you move up through the ranks and you become part of the administration of whatever, you start to see what's really going on, and you get a more full picture, rather than a compartmentalized picture.

A: And then, as you move up into the ranks, you realize that some of the things you are doing are not in the best interests of our country?

T: Absolutely.

Have you got any other thoughts on how you're establishing this base, from which we can work?

Gene.

T: You know, during Vietnam, many of the people who ended up as prisoners in Vietnam, I think were approached simply through debriefings, and it was - the decision was made then whether the agency wanted to recruit them then, or how they wanted to go about doing things.

I think?

A: Which prisoners?

T: Prisoners of war from Vietnam.

A: From Vietnam, OK.

T: That's correct.

A: Yes.

T: You know, they've pretty well shown their oats at that point, and the agency is real interested in someone who can keep their mouth shut.

A; OK.

And so, what else, in that regard?

T: In that regard, also, and in what we talked about just a moment ago, with the older agents, I think what's important is for us to think about today - today the director of the CIA is nothing more than a political position. You don't necessarily have a man with the background needed to run that agency.

Just as in the FBI, you don't necessarily have - I think our intelligence agencies are lacking leadership, right now.

A: Ah! That's the understatement of the year!

Gene, they have - ever since J. Edgar Hoover died, they have put judges - the only person they put in there with any experience was Clarence Kelly (sp?), and he did a good job, but they put these judges in there, and of course Louis Freeh, he's a former judge, but he's also a former U.S. Attorney, and a former FBI agent.

We had somebody on our show here recently who was able to document - and he claimed he'd documented - the fact that he was working a CIA covert operation on Long Island, New York - he's an FBI agent, a 21-year veteran, and he found out that it was actually CIA, and he reported to his supervisor in New York City. He did nothing about it. He reported it to the judge, Sessions, director of the FBI, he did nothing, didn't even respond to the letter. And then he wrote to Congress.

And do you know who his supervisor was in New York City? Louis Freeh.

T: That's right.

A: So, of course, Louis Freeh became a FBI supervisor, resigned, became a U.S. Attorney, resigned, became a federal judge, resigned, became director of the FBI. That was his little plum for keeping his mouth shut, obviously, right?

T: That's right.

A: That's the way they operate.

T: And if the people out there understand this, that an intelligence agency is no better than the small intelligence groups that are set up by each operative. That's what makes the Mossad such a successful intelligence agency in human intelligence, humint, the fact that they have a community of people out there providing information, and they have set up, you know, the Kochsas (sp?), which are the actual agents, have set up their own intelligence network, each Kochsa, and the same is with the American intelligence, U.S. intelligence. And it's no better than the intelligence group that each agent sets up?

A: Right.

We'll be right back. It's time for a quick break.

(BREAK)

A: Gene Tatum, 25-year CIA deep-cover agent, and Stu Webb, whistleblower.

Gene, by the way, and Stu also, that FBI agent that tried to expose that CIA covert operation, not to the public, but through the channels, thinking he was, well, he's an all-American guy, right? By the way, he was a highly-decorated Vietnam veteran, and was a lieutenant colonel in the reserve. He's now serving 30 to 50 years for sexually - supposedly sexually molesting a child. Isn't that kind of a kicker, huh?

T: Is that Mr. Thau (sp?)?

A: Yes.

W: Yes.

A: You know about it, the case?

T: Yes, I do.

A: Were you involved in that?

T: No, I wasn't.

A: What do you know about the case?

T: You can bet that he was effectively neutralized.

A: That was what they did, right?

T: That's correct.

A: Do you have any personal knowledge about the case?

T: Not direct, but indirect, from friends....

A: Can you tell us about it?

T: ....still active in the community.

I'd rather not right now, simply because of the people I'm working with and trying to write that.

A: OK.

Well, I understand, if I ask you any questions that are - if you don't feel like answering?

T: He's getting ready to go into the appellate level, and we have some information we're providing for that. And we don't want to?

A: Yes, of course.

Well, if I ask you any questions that are going to create any problems for anybody, of course I won't - tell me, it's not a problem for me.